High level 3e magic item purchasing... when does enough become too much?

[Ridley's Cohort]

-Because of the above factors, most of the magic items found for purchase will either be stolen- from crypts, dungeons, houses, caravans, ect. Just because someone finds something in a dungeon doesnt mean that there isnt an adventurer's family, possibly with scrying spells, looking for the family greatsword +3. If something comes cheap, that could mean there is an irate nobleman looking for the Brooch of Charming that was taken from him. Dont go overboard with this, not every +1 ring has people chasing after it, but the major items, if taken from somewhere, are surely going to be looked for.

I find I disagree with almost all your points.

There is nothing wrong with an NPC choosing to spend their xp. Since how they earn their xp is nebulous, you should roleplay the NPC by his actual motivations, not necessarily how you like to play your own PC. Many players, even minmaxers, feel quite differently than you about making items BTW.

The main advantage of having a default selling price of 50% book value is to avoid this mess of second guessing what the price of every tidbit of magic is; the PCs have paid a premium for liquidity already, so don't bother to nickel and dime them. If the cost to purchase varies, then you are mailing a gold engraved invitation for the PCs to haggle over every last +1 sword they sell. Why 50% book value? Why not 65%? Or 110%? In the end you have not really changed anything except made bookkeeping more burdensome for the DM and all the players. Have fun!

I partially agree with your point about quests for materials. In theory this in factored into the cost to make the item already. If a Wizard needs a phoenix feather to make a that Staff of Fire, you should also drastically lower the material cost to make the item because, presumably, the book value cost includes an estimated value for that feather.

I find the idea that most magic items are found in crypts, dungeons, etc. laughable. It is circular reasoning. Items are made by Wizards and Clerics for the most part. If you do not like the item creation guidelines and magic item prices, feel free to Rule 0 them. But your dungeon induced myopia is not going to help your campaign world make sense, if you care about that sort of thing.

 

[mmadsen]

I guess I'm in the extreme minority here, but I believe that if the characters have the money, there's no item out of their reach.

Yes, you are in the extreme minority.

I equate it to real life: if you've got the money, someone will sale you whatever you want.

You live in a modern, capitalist, monetary economy.

Urbanmech said in his campaign the fighter and rogue feel like treasure is worthless because they can't buy any magic items with it. Where's the fun in that? Most adventurers are out there crawling through dungeons for wealth, prestige, and power.

If you acquire gold, you acquire great wealth, and that brings prestige and (temporal) power. I wouldn't expect it to bring great wisdom or magical power; that's a separate adventure.

What kind of sense does it make to run a campaign where no PC can buy or make magic items?

I don't think I've ever read a myth, legend, or even modern fantasy story where the hero goes to the magic store to pick up his magic items. They're supposed to be gifts from the gods or great works requiring secret knowledge to craft.

Anyway, no one's arguing that the players shouldn't be able to make magic items, simply that they shouldn't be able to plop down some gold, crank it through the magic machine, and get whatever magic item they want.

I also don't agree with the selling of magic items at half the market value...However, magic items are by their nature superior works of craftsmanship. They do not age like normal items, they are vastly more resilient, and their power doesn't wane unless they have charges.

If you're not in an efficient market, goods and the customers willing to pay for them don't naturally come together. Try buying or selling RAM for your computer in a Third World country.

 

[Numion]

At first I too limited the availability if more expensive magic items. Then I noticed something:

The cleric walks around with +6 to strength all day with emp. Bull's Strength, while the fighter is limited to a crappy +2 gloves.

Same with weapons. GMW lasts for hours, so it isn't fair if cleric has constantly a weapon with enhancement equal to his level / 3, while a fighter has the good ole 'dagger +1, rusty'.

Selling items is necessary to balance things between spellcasters and non-spellcasters. Even with expensive items.

 

[Metheus]

Of anyone, I'm glad that you disagreed with me Ridley's Cohort. I do not mean this as any sort of personal attack, it is just that of all the ideas on the thread, the one that prompted me to post was yours. The idea of merchants around the D+D multiverse looking at a +1 sword and then whipping out their bluebooks to find the resail value is great for highly ordered campaigns, but very low on roleplaying value. Yes, adventurers should haggle over every +1 sword they want to buy. Every NPC has their own motivation for selling a magic item, and if they all come up with exactly the same price, its going to be a pretty stale world.
I'm glad that you agree with me on the finding of materials for magic items. Most openminded DMs would lower the item creation cost if most of the materials were found instead of bought, I'm sure.
Its not that I'm against PCs having magic items. I just think that with the current 3E rules, a lot of the smaller items should be made by party members. Other ones could be found in the course of an adventure, or specifically looked for. I just think that the computer game, shopping list mentality cheapens having the items. Except for trinkets and timesavers, magic items shouldnt be in stores. Even the magic item merchants like the Red Wizards of Thay keep to low-level stuff for the most part, and as a PC I'd never commission something from them.
I guess I just like my items to have more value.

 

[Victim]

At first I too limited the availability if more expensive magic items. Then I noticed something:

The cleric walks around with +6 to strength all day with emp. Bull's Strength, while the fighter is limited to a crappy +2 gloves.

Same with weapons. GMW lasts for hours, so it isn't fair if cleric has constantly a weapon with enhancement equal to his level / 3, while a fighter has the good ole 'dagger +1, rusty'.

Selling items is necessary to balance things between spellcasters and non-spellcasters. Even with expensive items.

That's some amazing team play on the part of the cleric. I don't see much point in leaving the person with the best melee skills out cold as far as magical support goes, while buffing a character that could do so many other things. If your going to buff yourself for melee, why not use those spells on the fighter too? You won't be using the other spells if you're using the buffs, and thus fighting in melee combat, so there's little reason not to.

I don't see the XP cost on item creation as a major deterrent. My character has been creating items since level 6. He's one of two level 10 characters in my group, everyone else is lower in level. It's especially ironic since the other level 10 character is a wizard who crafts items as well. The main thing that XP costs prevent is a creation chain, in which a character would create an item, then sell it for twice the creation cost, then that money to create a more powerful item, until the character has the resources to create whatever he wants. It's still possible to use this trick, it just has a hefty cost.

 

[Dragonblade]

Paladin's post is right on the money.

First of all he is not in the minority. Everyone I know plays in a D&D campaign where you can buy magic. It only makes logical sense that magic and magical items would be bought and sold like any other commodity. Besides with the Item Creation feats all you need is gold and XP and you can make any item you want. The power to control magic item distribution has been put into PC's hands to a degree never before seen in any previous edition of D&D and naturally some DM's feel uncomfortable with that.

Yes, he does live in a modern capitalist economy but economics is nothing new. Furthermore, I would argue that there was FREER market in the middle ages then there is now. Granted it was much more dangerous and your money only lasted as long as you had the muscle to protect it and there were certain technologies that simply didn't exist, but you could technically buy anything that did exist at the time. Want to buy a pardon for your sins? A corrupt church official will sell you one. Need poison? Drugs? Women? Food? Land? Weapons? An army? Slaves? Money could buy any of it back then. Nowadays we have restrictive national governments that inhibit the trafficking of such things. And even they aren't always successful.

Anyway, I've found that D&D campaigns cannot be compared to fantasy novels or mythological stories. Fantasy novels are written and controlled by one supreme author and things exist in that world the way they do (logically or illogically) because the author wants them that way. Mythology is the same way. D&D, however, is an RPG driven by the inputs and actions of a group of (self-interested) players and a DM. Furthermore, the very rules of the game foster a certain atmosphere. The structure of magic and character classes, the very rules of the game; create an atmosphere and feel that can only be called "D&D". It is unique to itself despite minor campaign dependent variations. I feel that magic as a commodity is naturally occuring based on the D&D rules and the fact that there are players involved who will naturally make "self-interested" economic decisions regarding money, power, and magic.

For those DM's who want magic to have a rare and exotic feel to it, the rules need to be massively tweaked for their individual campaign. Because everything from PC power level to monster CR's to spell-casting in general is based on the premise of the standard D&D magic system. You cannot simply deny PC's magic or item creation feats without considering the ripple effect that will run through your campaign reality. Well, you can but it will create verisimilitude and internal consistency issues with your campaign.

 

[jasper]

don't think I've ever read a myth, legend, or even modern fantasy story where the hero goes to the magic store to pick up his magic items. They're supposed to be gifts from the gods or great works requiring secret knowledge to craft.

mad mad read some of Lawrence Watt-Evans books. you can buy minor magic.

Hey I allow my players buy magic items. If
1. I know they will need the extra support.
2. Drain off the gold they not spending.
3. I don't play often so I relax campaign rules to improve game play.

Dread Priate cat
Do let the others play in your litter box. If they create a magic item which unbalance your campaign, let the gods take notice. And offer your mages the job of judging a beauty contest and remember to bring an apple for the teacher.

 

[jasper]

Point of order mr dragonblade.
All governements even back then had laws on trade and stuff.
Ex wool exports in england.
various quality assurance laws of england.

Now if playing in a campaign around between the fall of Rome and William the really nice Conquerer
the laws and enforcement were looser.
And not only corrupt church officals would sell pardons. Depending on time/location this was valid fundraiser/ helping the poor tactic.

 

[SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS]

I agree with paladin here, in the standart seting of dnd 3e you can buy and make magic itens easily. You can buy almost any magic iten in the DMG in waterdeep for example. And some cheap magi itens are very usefull for rich people, particulary with dozens of high level wizards walking around the city....


Ps, Someone talked about RAM memory and third world countries, but I live in Brasil and can buy RAM any time I want....

 

[Petrosian]

One thing to comment on...

someone mentioned preferring gold to items because with gold you can make your own...

i understand what they said but i would like to mention my take on item costs...

When you need to make a wand of fireballs for 12k and need components for ~6k in special materials, i dont let me sorcerer character sit down tih 6k in gems and silber coins and poof they turn into a wand.

Instead he has to buy a 6k set of materials for making that wand... from someone... and that 6k is subject to the usual town limits on availability by cost AND the usual "3k and less is commonly available" limits.

In other words, making an item over 6k in cost is going to create problems with getting components and even lesser items might be ab issue in less than large towns.