high level attack bonuses?

[nittanytbone]

Role playing is all well and good, but if you start with less than a 16 in your key attack stat, yes, it will be painful. You don't necessarily need a 20 or 18, but if your concept is of a mildly dull, cute and bumbling wizard with 12 INT and 16 CHA you'll be playing a.... mildly dull, bumbling wizard.

4E is much less subject to abuse than 3.5 was. You don't have to "min max" or totally tweak everything out, but the math behind the game assumes that you make certain reasonable decisions, like putting a high score in your attack stat.

The Stormwind Fallacy. Its still True.

Additionally, a major source of bonuses should be your teammates. A cleric can easily give at least +2 to hit every round. A warlord has a great daily from level 1 that grants 1+INT modifier to hit a foe for the rest of the fight. Don't just rely on yourself to hit those tough defenses!

 

[WhatGravitas]

Not entirely sure I like this myself. I prefer that the more powerful you are, the less chance you should have of whiffing your attacks.

Or including more "Effect:" or "Miss:" into higher level powers. Would have preserved the sweet spot hit-ratio, but would show off how high-level characters can still have an effect.

The lack of miss effects makes big exploits/spells/prayers disappointing, if they miss - seen that in the video podcast. Especially if some at-wills like Reaping Strike allow you to have an effect regardless of hitting or missing.

The Stormwind Fallacy. Its still True.

Erm... what?

Cheers, LT.

 

[frankthedm]

Not entirely sure I like this myself. I prefer that the more powerful you are, the less chance you should have of whiffing your attacks.

Agreed. I ain't gaining XP and leveling up just so my foes can match my pace.

Maybe if/when I run a game, I'll just use more big groups of lower-level monsters, rather than always having the same number of level-appropriate monsters.

Yes. Epic PCs should be mowing down armies.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Is this the so-called "sweet spot"?

I think so.

I wouldn't want to start with a INT of 20 in the statistical assumptions. It is too optimized for my taste. A starting INT of 17 or 18 sounds more likely for a well-rounded wizard.

I think the less then 50 % resulting chance is to be compensated by 2 factors:
1) Using Leader powers to improve attack or gain extra attacks
2) Using maneuvering to get into a better attack position (combat advantage grants you a +2 to your attacks, after all!)

A "tertiary" aspect might to to figure out the weakness of the monster and attack it there (weak defenses, vulnerabilities).

Leaders can give you considerably bonuses to your attacks, and especially against Elite and Solo monsters, their abilities shine.

 

[Pickles JG]

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned this before but PCs seem to have a harder time of it as they level up.

Monster attacks & defences are based on level +x per the DMG.

To keep up PCs would have to get +29 by 30th level

They get +15 from levelling & +6 from magic items = +21. They will also get an average* of +3 from 6 stat boosts for +24. So if they had a 50% chance to hit at 1st level they are now 5 spots behind & have 25% chance.

Of course they will have 4 or even 5 bumps to their attack stat so 30%-35%.

Defences are similar. Heavy armour is best +6 magic, +6 Masterwork, +1 feat gives +28 total only one spot behind the curve.

Light arnour gets +15, +6 magic, +2 Masterwork, + 1 feat, + 3 stats (say) for +27. If you bump your “reflex” stat 5 times you actually keep up cf first level.

Normal defences will be the same 5 spots behind that attacks are but can take a feat for +2 to make only 3 spots of fall off.

I am not sure what the PCs get to compensate for this, if anything. There are not many buffs & those there are seem to trigger off hits & so become very swingy.

All in all this looks like PCs have an increasingly difficult time as they increase in levels & will really struggle with higher level foes at epic levels. I too think that larger numbers of lower level opponents will be more fun.

Of course I have not played much & not at all at high level to see how it pans out in practice.

The "fix" if one is needed would IMO be to bump all defences & attacks at 11 & 21 level.

*Increase 3 stats by +6. Realistically its will be +8 +6 +4 or +8 +8 +2 but the average is still +6.

 

[WhatGravitas]

About armour - have you included the masterwork bumps?

Cheers, LT.

 

[charlesatan]

About armour - have you included the masterwork bumps?

Cheers, LT.

He added the masterwork bumps but not the AC bonus the base armor gives.

 

[Andur]

But wait, a level 30 can take out Orcus solo...

You can't look at a class nor powers in a vacuum. If the PC isn't going to be facing the monster 1 v 1, then why bother trying to compare them that way? There are TONS of powers which either give bonuses to hit or negatives to defenses, take a Warlord-Ranger combo and at level 28 you are talking around an average of a +10 to hit, throw in a Fighter or Warlock and you will be able to have a additional bonuses, including CA.

 

[webrunner]

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned this before but PCs seem to have a harder time of it as they level up.

Monster attacks & defences are based on level +x per the DMG.

To keep up PCs would have to get +29 by 30th level

They get +15 from levelling & +6 from magic items = +21. They will also get an average* of +3 from 6 stat boosts for +24. So if they had a 50% chance to hit at 1st level they are now 5 spots behind & have 25% chance.

Of course they will have 4 or even 5 bumps to their attack stat so 30%-35%.

Defences are similar. Heavy armour is best +6 magic, +6 Masterwork, +1 feat gives +28 total only one spot behind the curve.

Light arnour gets +15, +6 magic, +2 Masterwork, + 1 feat, + 3 stats (say) for +27. If you bump your “reflex” stat 5 times you actually keep up cf first level.

Normal defences will be the same 5 spots behind that attacks are but can take a feat for +2 to make only 3 spots of fall off.

I am not sure what the PCs get to compensate for this, if anything. There are not many buffs & those there are seem to trigger off hits & so become very swingy.

All in all this looks like PCs have an increasingly difficult time as they increase in levels & will really struggle with higher level foes at epic levels. I too think that larger numbers of lower level opponents will be more fun.

Of course I have not played much & not at all at high level to see how it pans out in practice.

The "fix" if one is needed would IMO be to bump all defences & attacks at 11 & 21 level.

*Increase 3 stats by +6. Realistically its will be +8 +6 +4 or +8 +8 +2 but the average is still +6.

I think the players are also expected to have some attack-bonusing feats and things like, more bonuses from theirs and other powers.

 

[Branduil]

Main stat +8
Levels +15
Enh. +6
Total +29 to attack

Did I miss something?