High Level Characters, Psychology and their impact on Society

[A'koss]

This is a topic which I'm trying to address in a little more "believable" fashion for our new campaign. Although it is a lower magic setting than core D&D, and PC race populations are lot smaller, the world is very rough and tumble and produces a fair number of high level characters.

What do people think the "real life" impact would be of D&D level-based advancement on society? Especially considering a character can advance himself in virtually every conceivable way and essentially without limit...

How do you think the common people feel about high level characters in general?

How would society adapt with the presence of people with such power? Though this question could easily apply to living on a world with numerous other intelligent and powerful races.

Then, what about the character himself?

What goes on in the head of man/woman who was born a weakling commoner but has advanced to the point where they can, quite literally, rip the head off a full-grown man with their bare hands. They can face down collosal monsters with medieval melee weaponry and expect to win! The power they achieve isn't inherent to the race like some outsider - it is a power that has to be earned, and not easily, and I think that would have a deep psychological impact on a person who has transitioned from one extreme (real-life man or woman) to the other (near-god).

Also, this is power that achieved, for the most part, through intense and bloody combat... and plenty of it. How does that reflect on the character and on a society who is very aware of that path to power?

I had some half-formed ideas of my own, but I'm looking more for just some original ideas on the matter (things I hadn't considered) and didn't want to try and take the discussion in any one direction.


Thoughts?

A'koss.

 

[Altalazar]

I think this depends a great deal on how the "authorities" are set up.

I mean, what would the King think of someone who had such power who wasn't directly undre his thumb? Would the king then have to be a high level something to be king?

Would it matter if the character could wipe out the whole city watch and take over the city single-handedly?

The question is, what societal controls would be in place to keep such powerful people in check. They would be like people in Predator armor walking around a town of peasants. What happens if they break the law or just sort of ignore it? How can consequences against them be enforced?

I think there would be a lot of fear on the part of the commoners. Fear can make people do crazy things. Perhaps they'd even push for all sorts of draconian laws to attempt to keep such individuals in check.

Then it is a question of whether the common folk really trust that the authorities can keep them safe.

I'm sure for the inner psychology, looking to the mindset of the rags to riches folks is a good starting place. They may not be able to rip peoples' heads off with bare hands, but they certainly could afford to hire someone to do it for them. What you are talking about is POWER - and as they say, Power Corrupts. So unless there was some check on it, it could lead to some nasty results.

Perhaps if the authorities can't handle all those high level, less than honest, head-rippers out there, the only way to keep them in check is other head-rippers with a more "good" outlook on life. But since they aren't the official government, they sort of free-lance, and get hired to deal with situations the authorities can't handle. Hmmm... this sounds... familiar... I KNOW I've heard of this sort of thing before...

Then those that do "good" will get a feeling of "goodness" inside - having all that power and using it to help others - perhaps they'd feel a maternal or paternal feeling toward all the commoners they protected.

I think the answer to this depends greatly on the other, external factors.

Are there lots of tough monsters out there, threatening the commoners? Perhaps the common and not-so-common would be bonded together by a common enemy - where the commoners fear monsters far more than head-rippers. Are there a lot of head-rippers in official power positions, and how do THEY behave? Are they despots or do they have a constitutional monarchy?

 

[I'm A Banana]

You said the world was a fairly rough-and-tumble place....

I'd say that high-level characters would *be* the authorities in such a place, and would be less concerned with working in society than with making the world a safe place for society (if they're good-aligned, anyway).

I mean, who are you going to choose for your king, the son of some sheltered noble, or the guy who cleared your homeland of bugbears? What kind of loaylty can Kingy McCrownman command when there's a powerful cleric who can raise the dead on the frontier town?

Indeed, because the world is so rough-and-tumble, attaining a high level *is* the measure of social power. It'd be like if everyone who *really* liked Tom Cruise got under his banner and formed the Tom Cruise Nation, because Tom Cruise killed those evil Canadians on the border...

Celebrity status = war success = tamer of the wilds = guy you'd like leading you.

 

[Ferrix]

Definately an interesting topic to bring up, especially when considering world building.

I'll bring this question up with two friends of mine and see how we can give examples from the world we're designing together. When I get them I'll post them.

And when I'm not at work as well.

 

[Nifft]

The way I do it IMC is to simply reduce the number of people. Magic amplifies an individual's productivity to very high levels, so you need far fewer people to have a survivable society. If a single 10th-level bad guy could kill every peasant in a 5-mile radius, gee, I guess there aren't any peasants left. IMC, there are Experts and Aristocrats, but nothing as weak & tasty as a Commoner survived the last Demon-War 1,000 years ago. Most people have PC Class levels. What separates adventurers from normal folk (guards, etc.) is the lack of a survival instinct.

Instead of using the medieval model of 20 farmers -> 1 urban dude, make it 1 farmer -> 20 urban dudes. Of course, that one farmer probably has some Druid levels.

Also, professional armies are the rule, not the exception. When Dragons and Demons are credible threats, no-one is going to live in a non-millitary society -- unless they have excellent protection against detection. Army life is very dangerous -- there are few people above 16th level because they tend to get eaten while saving their nation -- but very honorable. High-level Paladins are natural commanders for the armies -- like a more-egalitarian medieval "Noble".

IMC, "Natural" life expectancy is around modern 1st-world life expectancy -- 90 or so. However, very few people die of natural causes, so total life expectancy is more like 30. People have many children, but most are eaten by monsters.

So, to sum up: make the world high-magic. Make NPCs high level. But don't forget to make disasters truely epic, world-shattering, such that only high-level NPCs are likely to survive. Since civilization is powerful, keep it small -- limited to only places that are easy to defend and not home to more powerful, man-eating predators.

-- N

 

[neoweasel]

I think this depends a great deal on how the "authorities" are set up.

I mean, what would the King think of someone who had such power who wasn't directly undre his thumb? Would the king then have to be a high level something to be king?

Rulers of areas would need to have some sort of power that most other people can't get their hands on. The thing is, the king of a decent-sized nation has sufficient funds to aquire fairly hefty amounts of magic items and hand them out to trusted retainers. (He wouldn't deal with such problems himself, I'm sure.) The problem is finding trusted retainers one possible method is to pay the important ones more than anyone else can. It's not necessarily the best way to do it, but it does work.

In a world where mind-effecting magic and/or psionics exist, you can have geasa or the like so that fairly powerful citizens, or citizens who are being trained to be such, can't rebel against you. You just need an 11+ level cleric, wizard or sorcerer you can trust.

I can't imagine that there are worlds out there where the ONLY way to advance in levels is to go adventuring and kill things. There have to be (probably slower) ways like training intensively. One would assume that most rulers have some training at arms (which traditionally happened) and/or magic (which didn't, for obvious reasons).

One of the major problems about figuring out how much of an impact high-level characters have on a world is figuring out how many there are. A few 5th+ level druids in an area should be able to improve the output of farms by 33%, driving up population density. If you take population density estimates from before the time of the Black Plague in Europe, you can probably increase the population density by a factor about 2.5. This might not seem like a huge amount, but it allows "Metropolis" class towns (pop 25001+) to be much more common. This means that you have a bunch of 12+ level characters wandering around as permanent citizens of your average Barony.

I'm not sure what the answers are, but I think that gives a little thought in the right direction.

 

[neoweasel]

I mean, who are you going to choose for your king, the son of some sheltered noble, or the guy who cleared your homeland of bugbears? What kind of loaylty can Kingy McCrownman command when there's a powerful cleric who can raise the dead on the frontier town?

However, if you have something like "Divine Right of Kings" which existed in our world, then you keep the bloodline of kings. They're the king because the gods SAID that line should be kings. If it's been tradition for long enough no-one is going to question it. They won't even think to.

I'm not saying that you're always wrong, but there can be instances in which it just doesn't apply. Honestly, I think the instances where it doesn't apply might make for some really interesting stories - if outsiders come in and take over the kingdom for example.

 

[Tonguez]

This is the reason that I consider anything over Level 10 to be 'Epic' - onces PCs go that high they are no longer functioning members of normal society, they are Heroes and Legends who ought to be off hunting dragons and slaying demons while the rest of the world carries on worrying about the Orc raids.

Also I don't generally think high level characters make good monarchs simply because they have a culture of wandering off to explore dungeons, slay monsters and save the world - thats not much good to Farmer Brown whose goat was shot by Ma Dudas cause she said it was eating her lettuces. The Common folk want a settled leader who they can rely on in a pinch- the Lvl 18 Druid that wonders by once a year to give them a bumper crop is a Hero, he isn't a leader.

Actually come to think of it I think Gandalf gives a pretty good example of a High Level character and how he interacts with society. ie He occasionally pops into the Shire puts on a quick display to impress the punters and then continues on to whatever high level adventure is calling him. He's an annual diversion, not a permanent fixture

 

[Trickstergod]

I think the world would essentially exists as is.

Most people have no concept of level. We would have enough trouble placing a level on our selves, much less other people.

For that matter, realize that some of those vicious, nasty monsters out here cannot be killed by mundane medieval weaponry, but instead, require special materials or magic to harm in the first place - at least, if one hopes to have much success against them.

Furthermore, we have plenty of people who could be termed as "high level" characters in the real world. Military specialists, martial arts experts, hardcore survivalists, and all other sorts, individuals who can do some fairly impressive stuff. And how much effect do they have on the world at large? Well, most of the time, it's not so grand of an impact. Individuals who would be closer to 1st through 5th level Aristocrats and Experts typically have greater sway than those who we could approximate as level 10-15 Fighters, Warriors and Rogues.

But that's, of course, just taking into account the more mundane classes, those who don't have the capacity for 9th level spells, the ability to fly into the air and create a poisonous, billowing cloud of death for most of those whom it touches.

So what about the effect of those high power individuals who can ensorcel the mind and lay waste to cities more or less by them self?

My general take is this:

Sorcerers and Wizards are, for the most part, reclusive scholars or interested in other affairs than this world. At the very least, they would rarely display themselves openly. When they have an effect on the world, it's from behind the throne. There's a reason they have those charm spells, after all, and by not being the visible face of rulership, they can avoid some of the nastier parts of the role - such as rebellion and assassination, just to name a couple. I also don't see blatant displays of power being overly common from them, at least common enough that it would drastically alter the world. A good many medieval folk held various superstitions and fears without necessarily any validity to them in the first place; the difference in a world with high level arcane casters would mainly be, in my mind, that those superstitions were true, and those yarns spun around the hearth likely would be as well. After all, while a kingdom may not have much to worry about from a lone high level fighter, that lone wizard may. Where hordes of 4th level warriors may cut down the high level fighter (assuming no magical gear) and not be much of a threat to the high level wizard, that high level fighter does become a threat to the high level wizard. So some of the potentially drastic alterations high level spellcasters might bring in are reduced, in part, because there still are folk who, while possibly not an army in and of themselves, are capable of giving the spellcasters themselves a pretty bad day. Depending on the circumstances, of course.

As for priests, whether clerical or druidic, I'm of the opinion that they're generally going to be involved in one cause or another. They're likely not going to be too involved in politics, even amongst their own church, as they just don't have the time to be insuring the tithes are in and that all the apprentices are properly trained, or what have you. If they were, and were high level, they'd more likely be Experts than Clerics.

And this all goes back to high level characters keeping each other in check. For every Saladin, there's a Richard the Lionhearted.

So to put a different spin on the initial question of what effect do high level characters and their path to power have on the individual and society, well, it could just as readily be asked with the modern spin of "Just what effect does extensive martial arts or military training have on the psychology of the individual and society on the whole?" In regards to society, I'd say...not too much. Those folk are admired to be sure, or reviled, or what have you, but our own worlds equivalents of the high level characters rarely have too strong of an influence upon the world, at least in any direct and obvious manner. As for the individual...well, I'm sure you could readily find some information on the psychology of a black belt or a professional assassin easily enough. Even adding in intense and bloody combat, which skill doesn't always coincide with, there's still going to be some real-world analogies. For my part, I'd liken the effects on the individual to conceivably be something like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or something similar.

 

[Enkhidu]

...Perhaps if the authorities can't handle all those high level, less than honest, head-rippers out there, the only way to keep them in check is other head-rippers with a more "good" outlook on life. But since they aren't the official government, they sort of free-lance, and get hired to deal with situations the authorities can't handle. Hmmm... this sounds... familiar... I KNOW I've heard of this sort of thing before...

Because you just described the Avengers. Or the Justice League. Or the Fantastic Four. Or, oh you get the idea...

Want to know what its like to be a high level PC in a world of not so high level NPCs? Look at the comics. Superhero comics are built around the conceit that powerful individuals exist and interact with the world around them. So when your PCs get to high levels look to the four color books.