High Level Characters, Psychology and their impact on Society

[A'koss]

Thought provoking stuff... It's interesting to see the range in impact that people here think HLers will have on a world - everything from negligable to profound.

Altalazar, the question of authority is still very much in the air IMC, and how much say commoners would actually have in it. I honestly suspect very little to none...

To put it in a little perspective IMC, settlements are built into remote locations such as cliff-sides, tall pinnacles, isolated mesas, underground and on small islands. It's too dangerous to build settlements out in the open due to a variety of threats (mostly from monstrous, surprisingly intelligent, but non-magical beasts, giants and a few more powerful magical critters) And I'm using these threats as the "glue" to keep it all together - everybody has to pitch in and do their part. However, as settlements have developed to become more secure and trade is becoming more reliable, the powerful now have more time to persue... other goals.

Kamikaze Midget, I agree that (barring "divine right to rule") that rulership would naturally evolve into meritocracies of one sort or another. Retired, but powerful, former adventurers who have strong ties to their homelands (or conquerers) would naturally find themselves in these positions. They would rule because they have the total package - they are the wisest, the most charismatic, the most intelligent and of course, the most powerful. They would rule because it would be very difficult to remove them, especially in a (more conventional) world where resurrection is so easy.

Of course, the potential for abusing that power must be considered as well. You can do essentially... whatever you wanted and no peasant uprising is going to stop you. Power will reveal your true character like nothing else.

On the psychological side I gotta wonder if a lot of HLers wouldn't engage in some serious navel-gazing... as in, "How is such a thing possible?" "How can four farmboys from Torsten's Brook travel to the Abyss, defeat an army of demons, cross rivers of blood and lakes of fire, breach a mountain-sized fortress of skulls and slay a plane-ruling Demon Prince in his own throne room... and return home for tea and biscuits."

I'll get to the rest of the comments shortly... Keep 'em comin'!

A'koss.

 

[Piratecat]

It's likely that many people have heard of high level adventurers, if they interact with society at all. High-level adventurers are a lot like the rock stars of their professions. Their very presence incites chaos - from people who want to see them, to people who are inspired by them, to people who are jealous of them, to politicians who want to leverage their fame for their own purposes.

I can see high-lvl PCs being used as symbols by both tyrants and good Kings. "Drake Darkstorm supports this war, for our cause is just!" Some of this high profile exposure might happen without the PC's permission, which might make for a wonderful adventure as the PCs try to stop someone from sullying their good name.

 

[Trickstergod]

Altalazar, the question of authority is still very much in the air IMC, and how much say commoners would actually have in it. I honestly suspect very little to none...

Kamikaze Midget, I agree that (barring "divine right to rule") that rulership would naturally evolve into meritocracies of one sort or another. Retired, but powerful, former adventurers who have strong ties to their homelands (or conquerers) would naturally find themselves in these positions. They would rule because they have the total package - they are the wisest, the most charismatic, the most intelligent and of course, the most powerful. They would rule because it would be very difficult to remove them, especially in a (more conventional) world where resurrection is so easy.

Of course, the potential for abusing that power must be considered as well. You can do essentially... whatever you wanted and no peasant uprising is going to stop you. Power will reveal your true character like nothing else.

In response to this...

Keep in mind that outside of those initial conquering heroes or villains or whatever, that the model of the wisest, most charismatic, most intelligent of rulers begins to break down. Outside of immortal rulers, eventually those individuals of might are going to die, and depending on just what sort of government's been set up, the next batch will by no means necessarily have all the virtues that the nations founders had.

If the nation's rulership is hereditary in some way, it's almost guaranteed that after a few generations the merit of the rulers will slip, if this doesn't happen right away. Any number of nations in the past have had this happen, where one brilliant, charismatic ruler who brought the world to heel had his empire shattered upon his death, due to greedy, occasionally incompetent, heirs.

Perhaps the right of rule isn't hereditary, however, or at the least, isn't entirely hereditary. Perhaps the leaders are chosen by their merits. Well, how do they go about defining those merits? A test of arms? Well, the best swordsman is rarely the best ruler. The nation likely won't last long when its rulers are chosen in a contest like that. Magic, perhaps? A bit more intelligent this time around, but I know any number of bright individuals who would fail abysmally at maintaining a nation. Tests specifically related to knowledge of how to rule and handle a nation? Ok, that's a bit better, but in this case, most of the rulers are going to be high level Experts.

Let's say that rulership passes to the next highest ranking general in an army or the like then. In which case, the individual is likely to be some mix of Fighter and either Aristocrat or Expert, with likely more levels in Expert than anything else. Tactical knowledge, an eye for geography, a sense of historical failures and triumphs, all imply a good chunk of Knowledge skills. While some battlefield experience is likely in there, it's likely equalled, if not excelled, by time off the field, avoiding getting chopped up so you can better lead your troops, and keep leading them.

Perhaps the nation's a democracy or republic of some sort, where some folk have a say over who rules. All right, fair enough. In which case, while magic can definitely help, even mundane individuals can compete, so long as they properly know how to grease the wheels of politics. Depending on how many people have a vote, it also might be near impossible for magic to have more than a negligable effect on swaying people in the long term. And again, the ones best suited towards manipulating a vote their way and having the proper knowledge to run things are likely Aristocrats or Experts, who have focused on Diplomacy and Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) instead of Concentration and Survival.

Furthermore, while those heroes and villains have been off smiting monsters and saving the world, chances are there's been any number of other folk who have set their sights on rulership, and have had no distractions to turn them from that path. A land ruled by the most powerful is almost certainly in a state of anarchy every other generation, as the 20th level character types don't necessarily have an "in" into the political system, whatever it may be. Whether from blood or voting or whatever. Not to mention that there's likely a few other high level people kicking around who don't want to upset the balance, even when some incompetent becomes the ruler, and will seek out and try to stop those who attempt rebellion. Just think back on some of Rome's emperors and you'll see the validity in that statement. Once the Genghis Khan or Alexander the Great dies, the heroic, potent ruler is likely to have the empire collapse, or be replaced by a bureaucrat of some sort.

In general, I think that high level characters tend to have a bit of autonomy from the government, or use it to their advantage, but rarely hold the reins. If high level characters are running the show, they likely are split around halfway between Aristocrat or Expert, or possibly have levels only in those classes. They've had to focus on skills and abilities and activities which preclude learning how to kick more ass.

 

[barsoomcore]

The thing that makes it so hard is that D&D power acquisition is fundamentally different from real-world power acquisition. Especially when you add magic to the mix.

NOBODY in our world possesses very much "power" in and of themselves. Power in our world is really more about social contracts and the ability to get OTHER PEOPLE to do what you want -- as opposed to D&D magic power, which is all about being able to do what you want yourself.

The difference is that RL power provides a built-in dependency on society. In an anarchic situation, power gets levelled. The President is no more powerful than I am in a situation where he can't make use of the government functions he ordinarily can. Without society to provide the power, there's very little difference between me and anybody else in the world. Especially if I'm not within their reach. Even holding a gun doesn't make THAT much of a difference -- in a one-to-one relationship it does, but a gun can be taken away from you -- and it's only a source of power so long as a society exists capable of creating and distributing ammunition. Again, it's a power source that has a built-in preference for social stability.

The fact is that power in our world selects for stable societies. Power cannot be acquired in an anarchic situation.

This does not hold true for D&D magic power. This form of power does not select for social stability -- indeed, you might argue the opposite.

It was this idea that largely inspired my Barsoom campaign.

Assume that any population contains a certain number of paranoid freaks. Being paranoid freaks, they want to acquire power so as to ensure that others cannot gain power over them.

Now in our world, they usually don't get very far because they need social skills in order to acquire much power. Which they don't have, being paranoid freaks, and so are forced to find jobs in software QA and so on. Even if they do manage to get somewhere, once they start manifesting their paranoid freakishness, the world generally gangs up on them and strips them of their (socially-dependent) power.

Now imagine one of the paranoid freaks as a sorcerer. Sure, at some point he's going to reveal his paranoid freakishness. But what if he was smart enough (paranoid enough?) not to do so until he'd put into place every conceivable trick and trap and contingency plan his paranoid genius could come up with?

D&D magic power selects for paranoids. The best plan for acquiring power in this system is to eliminate every other magic-user in the world. Now, of course most paranoids, when they start down this path, aren't going to get very far because they'll get identified before they're strong enough to pull it off. But eventually, somebody's going to come along who's cold enough, smart enough, mean enough and patient enough (and insane enough) to make it work. And they only have to succeed once, to complete change the entire nature of the world. Once the freaks win, it's all over.

In Vancouver recently the police have been digging up a pig farm. It seems that this pig farmer has been kidnapping prostitutes from downtown Vancouver for something like THIRTY YEARS, bringing them out to this farm and murdering them.

Imagine if he'd been born a sorcerer.

Barsoom is a world where the freaks have won.

 

[Trickstergod]

Assume that any population contains a certain number of paranoid freaks. Being paranoid freaks, they want to acquire power so as to ensure that others cannot gain power over them.

Now in our world, they usually don't get very far because they need social skills in order to acquire much power. Which they don't have, being paranoid freaks, and so are forced to find jobs in software QA and so on. Even if they do manage to get somewhere, once they start manifesting their paranoid freakishness, the world generally gangs up on them and strips them of their (socially-dependent) power.

Now imagine one of the paranoid freaks as a sorcerer. Sure, at some point he's going to reveal his paranoid freakishness. But what if he was smart enough (paranoid enough?) not to do so until he'd put into place every conceivable trick and trap and contingency plan his paranoid genius could come up with?

Well, this is where the "one-shot" rulers come into play, in my opinion. Those who won't leave a lasting legacy behind them, or if they do, the power will swiftly turn to hands that are more intent on ruling and less intent on dropping fireballs.

Leastaways, in any stable form of society. An unstable society is completely different; but if a nation's been around for 200 or more years without any successful rebellion, chances are, its rulers, even if they do have core class levels, will also likely have a number of NPC class levels as well, as their interests and upbringing have changed considerably from those of the founding fathers.

 

[barsoomcore]

The power will swiftly turn to hands that are more intent on ruling and less intent on dropping fireballs.

Ah, but what about hands that are intent on dropping fireballs as the MEANS to ruling?

Just because somebody gains immense magic power doesn't mean they have no interest in "social" power. Indeed, if you're a paranoid freak, what you want to do is, after you've eliminated all threats, create a stable society where it's impossible for anyone to even begin to challenge you. Then turn yourself into a lich and rule the world forever and ever and ever.

And again, maybe most paranoid freaks won't be able to pull this off -- but it only takes ONE to change the world forever. And given enough time and enough generations, you'll get that one.

We think there's all these checks and balances built in to power struggles, and there are -- in OUR systems. But D&D magic is a form of power with NO correlation to our world.

Leastaways, in any stable form of society. An unstable society is completely different; but if a nation's been around for 200 or more years without any successful rebellion, chances are, its rulers, even if they do have core class levels, will also likely have a number of NPC class levels as well, as their interests and upbringing have changed considerably from those of the founding fathers.

I think the whole question of a "stable form of society" is uncertain in this kind of power context -- what is a stable form of society in a world like this? What about the immortal lich who rules forever? He doesn't need NPC class levels. He doesn't need wise advisors or a racalcitrant population -- he can literally rule through fear and might. His will makes the world run. He doesn't need good Diplomacy checks.

Indeed, given that no NPC class offers any advantages over a PC class, why would ANYONE take them? If the surest route to power is PC class levels, anyone who wants power (read: paranoid freaks) will always take those classes and not NPC classes. Rulers with NPC class levels won't be able to do anything about PC class characters who decide to take over -- they won't have enough personal power to survive.

 

[Carnifex]

We think there's all these checks and balances built in to power struggles, and there are -- in OUR systems. But D&D magic is a form of power with NO correlation to our world.

Well I dunno. In most campaigns, there are these guys called gods


I think generally, that religions with divine spellcasters and direct manifestations of deific will are a pretty good counterbalance to high level characters. If needed, a considerable deal of divine might can be manifested to combat a specific problem - like creating a proxy to deal with a paranoid freak sorcerer - but without too much permanent change, since doing so is taxing on the deity in question.

Or something like that.

 

[barsoomcore]

Okay, don't even get me started on the implications of definite, predictable divine manifestation.

Obviously, one's cosmology will have an impact on this sort of thing. That's an important point. For Barsoom, I deliberately wanted a cosmology that would NOT interfere with the workings of the freaks.

Basically, I wanted to take our world and add one big tweak -- magic. What happens to human society when magic works?

Lots, I suspect, and little of it good.

Me? Cynical? Nah...

 

[Numion]

It's likely that many people have heard of high level adventurers, if they interact with society at all. High-level adventurers are a lot like the rock stars of their professions. Their very presence incites chaos - from people who want to see them, to people who are inspired by them, to people who are jealous of them, to politicians who want to leverage their fame for their own purposes.

I can see high-lvl PCs being used as symbols by both tyrants and good Kings. "Drake Darkstorm supports this war, for our cause is just!" Some of this high profile exposure might happen without the PC's permission, which might make for a wonderful adventure as the PCs try to stop someone from sullying their good name.

Hmm.. makes me think: if athletes and celebrities have their own clothing and sneaker deals today, would an adventurer have his own sword deal? The Sting(tm) line of daggers, as seen on Frodo! Exclusively from Thunk the Blacksmith! Or royalties from Bards who recount their tales ..

I guess some adventurers would then also loot and slay for charity sometimes.

I see some possibilities for profiting in this!

 

[ruleslawyer]

bc: Your world is certainly set up on a plausible basis, but of course by no means is it the only plausible basis. A stable society model is actually quite possible. How? Because for every mad sorcerer that comes along, you'll get a self-sacrificing, heroic paladin. Real, nihilistic, total evil is indeed quite possible in a world in which raw individual power can dominate, but it's not the only means to power. Being a good boy and serving your (good-aligned) god well can give you lots of nifty powers: Heck, check out BoED, or just the description of the paladin class! So, it's true that if you have one really high-level PC-class character or group running around, and he/she/they're evil, you'll get a "paranoid freak dominance" of sorts. However, all you need is a second individual or group with the will to sacrifice on behalf of a stable society or the good of all to foil that bad guy's plans. Welcome to the standard heroic fantasy paradigm. What happens when Sauron dominates in Middle-Earth? Or worse still, Morgoth? Despair, total defeat, and doom. However, eventually, a Last Alliance, or a nice old bearded man from the West, or even a plucky halfling, comes along and it comes tumbling down like a house of cards. Back to stable society.