High Level Games - Love 'em or hate 'em?

[Numion]

I'm running my second 3E campaign that reached 16th level. I enjoy tremendoysly the possibilities of high-level play; the opponents, locales and all that. I mean, now I can pit them against the trio of undead archmages that I've always wanted, and make that happen in Abyss, too!

The downside of this is, as others have mentioned, that it takes a lot of work to make the adventures. Also, all the adventures have to have a meaningful plot, and that takes (for me) more work than making up the stats. By meaningful plot I mean that players shouldn't just stumble in to the lair of some nameless BALOR. I has to have some larger meaning. At lower levels they can easily just stumble on to some orcs, though, and voilá, instant adventure.

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

I don't like the greed for more power that high levels can encourage.

Ha! Don`t tell me that you consider Power insignificant, doesn`t it feel great to be so much better than those around you, even in a game? One of my characters is a LE 22nd level Lich, who considers average mortal to be nothing more than a vermin, which is a great fun to roleplay!

 

[Gaiden]

Before 3rd level, one critical hit can typically take out almost any character and it is frustrating to have roleplayed a character for three levels just to have the random orc with a battle axe critical and deal some 20 points of damage. So typically low level characters are frustrating in that lucky rolls rather than averages tend to determine the outcomes of combats as well as the fact that low level characters are extremely limited in what dangers they can avoid and deal with. I'd have to say that a bard is perhaps one of the most useful classes for any party at any level but especially low level as the bard's diplomacy can be off the charts.

Levels 4 and up are where some of the real fun starts with warriors finishing off their first sets of feat chains spellcasters gaining access to the 3rd level spells, characters entering PrC's, and the more versatile characters actually becoming fairly versatile.

Higher level characters are awesome to play because of the shear possiblities. Anything higher than 10th level should be able to survive almost any proportionally rated encounter not including insta kill effects - even if the foes are played to their fulles potential. I find that in order to really challenge PC's you have to use intelligent monsters who ambush and that are typically almost equal in power to the party - aka party = 4 10th levels then foes are almost 4 10th levels.

Really high levels like 16+ become extremely dangerous because almost all challenging encounters are going to have to involve magic and will typically be decided in the surprise round. The only way to really defeat a party at that level is to catch them off guard and that will typically kill them. Otherwise they are almost guaranteed to win the encounter.

I agree that higher level games need to focus more on the ramifications of an encounter than an encounter itself, but as smackdowns have shown, high level characters can take out just about anything.

In terms of player fun, all levels are interesting and can be amazing. Ultimately its up to the DM, though for the strength of a game in both challenge and fun factor. Low level games can be incredibly fun but also incredibly deadly. Ironically, high level games are the same - if for different reasons.

High level games require true GM's in the full sense that they are MASTERS. A DM has to account for broad implications including the outcomes of wars, reputations, gaining the attention of the planes and other high level characters.

 

[Desdichado]

Melkor:
Ha! Don`t tell me that you consider Power insignificant, doesn`t it feel great to be so much better than those around you, even in a game? One of my characters is a LE 22nd level Lich, who considers average mortal to be nothing more than a vermin, which is a great fun to roleplay!

Why not? It's true! But no, I don't play to run a fantasy power trip. I play to do things that I couldn't do in real life that are fun, and to wrap myself around a story that I think is interesting. In other words, I play RPGs for the same reason that I read fantastic and speculative fiction, and that has little to do with being able to pull out a smackdown from hell on anybody else.

 

[kreynolds]

[/color]
Why not? It's true! But no, I don't play to run a fantasy power trip. I play to do things that I couldn't do in real life that are fun, and to wrap myself around a story that I think is interesting. In other words, I play RPGs for the same reason that I read fantastic and speculative fiction, and that has little to do with being able to pull out a smackdown from hell on anybody else.

It is strange though that all of the characters you play either die, commit suicide, or retire between 10th to 12th level. Strange, indeed. It's a shame that you don't become that attatched to them.

 

[jollyninja]

i have found that while players tend to like the higher level games, dm's tend to not like them as much. personally i love them when either dming or playing. they take alot more work for the dm then low-mid level campaigns do and i think that most dm's either lack the time or will to come up with adventures that will challenge characters of high level in a combat situation. but isn't the payoff of being high level supposed to be that you can trounce most people?

when my campaigns get high level, they tend to focus more on intrigue and mystery then combat. players building new settlements and gaining titles, commanding armies, you know that sort of thing. by the time a character reaches high level, it is fairly clear in both player and dm's minds how the character might react in most situations and if players get bored with the lack of interesting combats, i just toss in a lev 20 goblin rogue to scare the pants off them. teleport does not break that encounter at all. high level gaming is not better or worse, it's just different and some dm's are good at it while others are not. i am better at high level dming then i am at low level dming, i tpk alot of lev 2-6 parties by accident (not expecting the party tactic to be "full frontal assault!") but i have never overpowered an encounter for lev 13-20.

 

[Desdichado]

kreynolds:
It is strange though that all of the characters you play either die, commit suicide, or retire between 10th to 12th level. Strange, indeed. It's a shame that you don't become that attatched to them.

I become attached to characters in books too, that doesn't mean that their adventures don't come to an end someday. Personally, I like the change more than I like playing one character for years and years. Or one campaign setting, for that matter. Too many other things I'm interested in doing than investing all my time on one character.

Anyway, it's kinda a moot point. I've rarely been in one campaign that had the longevity to build up from low level to high level, so my experience with high level is starting at mid to high and playing there.

 

[Henry]

I enjoy them, when I can get into them.

THe biggest problem for most people are that a group of people's situations never stay the same for more than six months to one year. A lot of campaigns break up because the group breaks up, goes separate ways, etc. If you ask most people who play high-level campaigns, most of them will not have the same people in them that they had when it started. It is a minor miracle when a core group of people can stay together and play the same campaign long enough to have a continguous 1st through 20th level experience.

Furthermore, many campaigns become bogged down or repetitive, and this can make a campaign stale as well. Who wants to play the same missions over and over again, but with different trappings? The nature of the campaign should change too, as it advances. I'm not saying that one can never run a campaign with the same style (hack & slash, political intrigue, etc.) for years, but the venues usually need to change in order for players to get fresh ideas and fresh challenges into the setting. Every five levels, try to change the setting on the players - take them from "home base" to another country or continent; then, take them to the Planes of existance; then take them to someplace totally different! Changing the venue can breathe new life into the campaign that has rescued yet another noble from evil, and yet another dragon is slain, and yet another exploration of the wildlands is undertaken.

Keep it fresh, and higher levels can take on whole new meanings.

 

[kreynolds]

...my experience with high level is starting at mid to high and playing there.

Unfortunately, that doesn't leave you much "real" experience to draw upon, as the experience is very different when you actually start at 1st level and work your tail off to get to 20th. You miss out on a lot of great gameplay, and especially the all important character development when you just start at mid-level. Hopefully, you'll get to experience this one day. It's pretty cool.

 

[BMF]

Unfortunately, that doesn't leave you much "real" experience to draw upon, as the experience is very different when you actually start at 1st level and work your tail off to get to 20th. You miss out on a lot of great gameplay, and especially the all important character development when you just start at mid-level. Hopefully, you'll get to experience this one day. It's pretty cool.

But that takes a long time. According to WotC market research, most gamers start a new campaign every 6 months or so. My group is no different. We have a couple long running campaigns that we go back to every few months, but we also like to change it up every few months and something different too.

Besides, rolling up a character is half the fun of the game, especially if you are rolling up a 10th level character.