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Pathfinder 1E High-level Pathfinder?

MerricB

Eternal Optimist
Supporter
G'day!

Could people please share with me their experiences of running high-level Pathfinder? By high-level, I mean levels 15+.

How long do combats take?
Do you make up your own NPCs & Monsters?
How are your players handling it?
How are you handling your players? :)

I enjoy high-level play, but the problems we had in 3.5e were a primary factor in why I fled screaming to the embrace of 4E (which has been working pretty well for me up to 22nd level so far...) However, I'm currently in an "investigating other systems" phase, so I'd appreciate any feedback as to how you've found play with high-level Pathfinder.

Cheers!
 

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The highest I have gotten in PF is 11-12, so all I am about to say is comparing outta game play concepts with no in play experience.

If the main reason you went to 4E was the balance between a fighter and wizard, it has gotten better, but it is not the same as 4E. Fighters got a boost and spells got a trim (mostly of the unbalancing spells). A wizard is still going to crush a fighter (summoner will turn him into jerky IMO, nice class but somewhat unbalancing in this department, for reasons why, you will need to read it).

It is a nice game and does clear up a lot of the problems, but the high level fighter vs wizard battle is still going. Mind you, fighter stays good longer now and is still good in high levels, but a wizard still is going to warp the battle field to win.
 

Please, if you don't have play experience, it's not much help.

Looking at the rules of 3.5e wouldn't have told me that it takes 2-3 hours for a 15th level combat.

Cheers!
 

Merrick, I played 3.5 up to level 40, and I'm currently running a custom (no Adventure Path) campaign with an high number of players (up to 12) Pathfinder only. Level 12-15.

Overall, the game is an huge improvement of 3.5. classes are more interesting and versatile. the quality of the books (I own core, bestiary 1 and 2, APG and GMG, and I play with those only) is high too, with few exceptions. It remains a 3.5 game - so if you really hate the 3.5 style, avoid it.

Disparity in power between classes has been lessened because

1) a lot of SoD spells have been changed. This has been somehow reversed by a feat tree in APG, but works for a spell only.

2) high level meleers and ranged attackers are SCARY damage wise AND are in general capable of more than few trick based on control (fear, maneuvers). if you want a spell-resistant meleer, I humbly suggest a barbarian, not a fighter.

Arcane Casters are still very strong, but melee, generally speaking, ends the combat - arcane casters change the flow (generally speaking - my players have a blaster sorcerer and a control focused fighter, and they rock too!).

My combats are long, but consider the number of players a standard party should do fine (ask other people). I generally make my own monsters only if humanoids (say, Goblin Witches, Hobgoblin Two-handed fighters) but you have a good array of opponents by bestiary only. I want to point out that the quality of bestiary 2 is equal, if not superior to the 1.

Bestiary has a page with guidelines for monster creation (damage, HP, AC, Saves) I use it to create on-the fly challenges, refluffing (someone could say "4th edition style").

Overall, swingy elements remain - people could consider it a bug, but for me it's a feature. Moreover, a good x3 critical could mean end of combat, hence a shorter combat.

In high level play, elements of "spell used to counter a spell to counter a spell to counter a spell" remain. As an example, in the last adventure the players discovered an attempt of scrying from the BBEG thanks to the wizard casting detect scrying. Teleport and similar stuff remains. My group love this, because it's a sign of the power level change. i want to avoid telport in a place? team Evil cleric casts Forbiddance. It depends from your tastes...

At the end, like 3.5, I just put up thing in a way that people don't ruin my plot using a powerful spell or using a powerful feat/skill combo, but are SUPPOSED to do this, otherwise they are defeated.

I hope it can be useful, feel free of ask anything, specific (of the campaing, or of a class).
 

High level Pathfinder play

Pathfinder DM here, and I haven't played 4E so while I can not compare them (PF/4E), I used to play/DM 3.xE so I will make my comparison to that.

PF high level combat is very similar to 3.5E because there are a lot of options. The biggest area that has helped make combat faster is the grapple/sunder/etc. maneuvers have been greatly simplified as 'combat maneuver'. Other things such as combined skills (stealth, instead of both hide in shadows and move silently) also help situationaly to speed up combat. While not all will agree, I think that changing most 'save or die/suck' to 'save or damage' speeds combat up also.

As an example, my guys, 5 players, just finished Legacy of Fire which ended at 16th level. The final battle against a very beefed up djinni noble (CR 18) and 4 djinni minions (CR 14) took about 60 minutes. Much of it was because only one character, the smiting paladin, could hit the noble with any regularity. The others took care of the minions and provided support.

-- david
Papa.DRB

I have also DM'd two other PF campaigns. Unfortunately one ended at about level 10, and the other around level 8. However the same things that sped up the high level combat helped there also. I have also DM'd several 3.5 campaigns up to 20th level, and yes they did take longer. If I had to put a percentage on it, I would say the same character levels in Pathfinder would take about 2/3 the time that a 3.5 combat would take.
 

6 players, levels 13 to 14. Hopefully, this qualifies as high level in your opinion.

The PCs:
- paladin 13
- fighter/rogue/shadowdancer 13
- bard 1/wizard 13
- cleric 14
- barbarian 13
- sorcerer 13

Last game session featured player raid against encampment of Ebon Tribe. Specifically, there was a semipermanent encampment on a bank of salt lake (i.e. water evaporated, leaving firm salt surface). Opposing forces consisted of:
- 7 ebon giants (fire giants, ebony skin, no facial hair, dark hair otherwise, in jellabiyas, wielding two-handed falchions), CR9 each (CR lowered as the opponents were wearing armor)
- the king (huge version of a giant), CR 11
- bloodshackle hag (converted from 3.5, basically a hag with 17th level sorcerer spellcasting abilities), CR 15
- malik (efreeti noble, with a wish once per week, the wish was intended to be used only as a defensive measure, as I have felt that using it offensively would send CR skyrocketing), CR 10
- 4 hellhounds
- 6 salt mephits
- 2 steady men (large earth elementals, serving the hag)

Special rules:
- dimensional travel is impeded (caster level check vs DC20 + spell level) due to incomplete portal located nearby
- dimensional travel causes fire damage - over 150 years ago a titan of fire met its end in this desert, subsequently setting on fire coterminous and coexistent planes


This was not an all out battle. The players staged the raid, buffed themselves (over an hour of game time spent on preparations) and then executed a lightning strike, spearheaded by an invisible/hidden/trueseeing/holy channeled/telepathic bonded scout to report on enemies from behind enemy lines (got mazed by hag for his efforts).

The fight lasted over 4 hours due to tactical maneuvering of all parties. Additionally, in a middle of the game, the hag used the wish to heal everyone (she meant healing her allies only, the wish backfired bringing everyone to full hitpoints and cancelling negative effects, though the dead remained dead).

While under normal circumstances the players would have probably faced TPK, the prebuffing and planning allowed them to survive despite overwhelming odds (and displacement against giants just rocks).

The battle occurred in four stages: approach, initial engagement (5 giants and hellhounds and mephits), wish and secondary engagement (malik, 2 giants, the king), final clash (malik, the king, the hag).

The end result was that the hag grabbed malik and fled, all giants died and mephits scattered to the winds.


If I were to make to draw conclusions... each player character was subject to 4-6 buffs. That alone took a lot of effort to control (fortunately, no one used dispel this time) and time to cast.
Lack of healing and magic support on NPC side was significant - the hag (control) and malik (blaster) were not sufficiently equipped to deal with players.


Regards,
Ruemere
 

Sadly, 13th-14th isn't really high level. :) It is the transition from the "sweet spot" of 3E to the "high level nightmare"...

Back when I was a 3E/3.5E DM, I ran about five campaigns that reached 15th-16th level, and one campaign (Age of Worms) which reached 21st level, so I got a good grounding in the problems that high-level 3E got.

Interestingly, character balance wasn't normally one of them: most of the players were pretty good optimisers (or were helped by those that were) and so either the inadequate classes weren't played... or they'd been fixed by the time we played them. (Player's Handbook II was brilliant for fighters; we used it a lot in the last couple of games we played, including AoW).

Preparation time and combat length were, sadly, much more of a problem. And I run combats quickly! However, reaching Very High Levels in 3E gave us a mass of problems.

Based on your reports - thanks very much for them! - Pathfinder has ameliorated some of the problems, but high-level play is still somewhat problematic.

Cheers!
 

Just GM'd last night (characters are 18th level), out of about 5 battles, 4 took less than a 1/2 hour each. The longest battle took about an hour or so, but it involved Warduke (yes, that Warduke) and 12 cult leader NPCs out of the GMG. Of course, the characters are all really powerful, so they make mincemeat out of my badguys, but we still have fun!
 


Yep, that's me.

I try not to sweat the small stuff, and go with the flow. I encourage players to do things like have fortresses and travel the planes, and base the adventure around them. The idea that freaks DMs out about high level seems to be their resources and power level. For my campaign I decided that it was a good thing for the adventure: they have no one else to turn to.

1) they can only do one thing a round, usually. Ergo have several distractions and you'll be fine.

2) BBEG is at least as powerful as they are, and has all their resources and more. This includes Wish spells, really.

3) the rest of the world is decidedly NOT epic level, which means resources are scarce. In my game, the group found a million adamantine daggers. Sounds like a trove, but they can only use up to 10 at once (one per hand), and no one in the setting can afford to buy them; well, until they go looking for characters, some of whom may be nefarious.

4) Disjunction is the ultimate equalizer. Don't like fly spells? Disjunction. Don't like their piles of items? Disjunction. Want to really get them? Disjuction-casting Sorcerer.

5) Weird materials for overcoming DR really helps. I had a foe whose only weakness was non-magical steel. They couldn't do anything worthwhile, didn't figure it out... and then I used disjunction on a sword, which promptly killed my guy. The only drawback! Anyhoo, the more unusual the better. Get creative.


I assume they'll kill everything in every encounter. If they don't, bonus: they'll have that foe left over to join the BBEG in the next room!


PFRPG: Nothing to say, really. We've had one combat. The wizard used disintegrate over and over. We'll see what's going to happen down the road, I guess.
 

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