Higher than level 30?

[jbear]

Edit: @Asmor

If that is the case it makes sense.

I wondered why choosing your last feat at level 30 really mattered if the game stopped there.

Providing support for lvl 30 Characters to have ongoing adventures would be great, and make that last feat choice meaningful.

 

[Bold or Stupid]

The way I'm looking at it the game does not stop when you reach 30, nope that's when the final epic quest begins...

 

[wingsandsword]

Thats a valid point, however, its worth noting that D&D cosmology is (and has always been) vaguely capped at the Greater God strata of power. With a few possible 'unseen' exceptions...Lady of Pain, Tharizdun, 'The Serpent', AO.

Ever since 2e there has been that tier above Greater God, the Overpowers/Overdeities. They tend to be transcendental beyond normal mortal, or even deific affairs and generally only concern themselves with matters of truly cosmic importance. Very little that even the mightiest mortals can do with the mightiest artifacts can even marginally affect them, and even numerous Greater Gods or entire Pantheons amassed cannot overwhelm them or even seriously challenge them. Only under the most incredible and truly extreme circumstances could a mortal even inconvenience or gain a momentary victory over them. They generally only concern themselves only with what happens on their own plane (or material world), but within that world they have virtually infinite power.

The typical one is an omnipotent creator deity that created a material world and the original deities of that world but now is so hand-off that they barely notice things happening on a mortal level, and only significant strife or discord on a divine level or something that truly imperils the very existence or fundamental balance of the world itself would be endangered, and then they are capable of massive unilateral action such as creating new Greater Gods, stripping gods of their power, creating whole new races, creating worlds, totally rewriting the rules of magic, generally edition-level changes (since this level of deity has been hauled out to explain the 1e to 2e shift in Forgotten Realms, the 2e to 3e transition in Die Vecna Die, and the 2e to Saga to 3e transition in Dragonlance).

The ones I know of: Highgod/Chaos on Krynn, Ao of Realmspace, The Lady of Pain, The Serpent (aka Mok'slyk), the Dark Powers of Ravenloft

The Serpent one is problematic since it is the only being of this scale that really acts beyond one world or plane, it appears to be native or home in Greyhawk but thanks to that notoriously bad module Die Vecna Die it meddles on the Outer Planes and in Ravenloft, and is stated to be of the same origin or class of being as the Lady of Pain herself

I would definitely not say that Tharizdun is of that scale, he was explicitly given Divine Rank 11 (low-end Intermediate Deity) in his 3e writeup in Dragon #294, although from what I gather 4e implies he's a little more powerful than a typical midrange deity.

In other words, I don't care if PC's are 100th level, they generally shouldn't be able to directly confront one of these things in any edition. They are able to make and unmake entire planets and pantheons, annihilate entire pantheons, rewrite the rules of magic, and generally exist to be an in-game form of DM fiat.

At best, they could use very powerful artifacts and/or truly unique circumstances to achieve a momentary advantage such as to escape it's wrath (like staging an escape from Ravenloft), distract a particularly mentally weak one (like imprisoning Chaos in the Greygem), or find a reason to receive a boon so great that it surpasses anything that could be won in battle (like Ao granting Midnight status as a Greater Goddess during the Time of Troubles so she could replace the slain Mystra, that's a mortal spellcaster suddenly becoming the second most powerful deity on the planet thanks to very unique circumstances with an Overdeity)

 

[M.L. Martin]

(since this level of deity has been hauled out to explain the 1e to 2e shift in Forgotten Realms, the 2e to 3e transition in Die Vecna Die, and the 2e to Saga to 3e transition in Dragonlance).

Correction: Chaos and Dragons of Summer Flame were created without intending a system transition; the transition to SAGA was mandated by TSR management after DoSF was written, pre-sales were strong, and the design team got the go-ahead to relaunch DL as a game. There appear to have been a variety of reasons behind the change, and the novel gave them an 'excuse', but there was no intent on the part of the novel writers or editorial team to make it a 'system transition' explanation. (Desire to jump on the 'diceless' bandwagon, to attract the novel fans who might be put off by the rules-heavy AD&D, to avoid DL's history of failure as an AD&D setting, and to make it easier to separate DL from D&D due to movie licensing issues are the reasons for SAGA I've heard from people who were there.)

The ones I know of: Highgod/Chaos on Krynn, Ao of Realmspace, The Lady of Pain, The Serpent (aka Mok'slyk), the Dark Powers of Ravenloft

The Serpent one is problematic since it is the only being of this scale that really acts beyond one world or plane, it appears to be native or home in Greyhawk but thanks to that notoriously bad module Die Vecna Die it meddles on the Outer Planes and in Ravenloft, and is stated to be of the same origin or class of being as the Lady of Pain herself

Well, the Dark Powers also have multiworld influence . . . but they can't reach the Outer Planes and can be superseded by Greater Powers. (The first is made clear in Vecna's writeup in Domains of Dread, the latter, in some references from the original Black Box.)

I would definitely not say that Tharizdun is of that scale, he was explicitly given Divine Rank 11 (low-end Intermediate Deity) in his 3e writeup in Dragon #294, although from what I gather 4e implies he's a little more powerful than a typical midrange deity.

That's the chained and battered Tharizdun, though, not Tharizdun at his height.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there GMforPowergamers!

if that book is balanced, you just made a sale...whe it is avalible I will check it out...

Balance is my middle name.

I personaly always remove the idea of "gods made everyhitng" so that there is always a bigger fish...

I considered a theoretical maximum of 100 (nice round number); with the Supreme Being at Level 99, but when I plotted all the stuff in between 30 and 100 it was spread too thin, so I have it dropped to 70. Though I still think Level 50 will be about the maximum for PCs, even I might struggle to come up with a hundred or so monsters beyond overgods.

the op just totaly gave you the venue for the sale pitch...and I am buying it hook line and sinker...

Well my achilles heel has always been getting things finished. I also work 30+ hours a week, so it can be tricky finding the time.

that is a good starting point...especialy since the higher you got he more elite and solos you run into...I don't think 100 stat blocks would be enought for heroic, but by epic yea...

Indeed, throw in some nifty templates and 100 monsters should be a good base to work from.

Funnily enough I was plotting my first adventure for the Legendary Tier which I have pencilled in to be called L1: Against the Reptile God (A Legendary Tier adventure for Levels 31-35) and realised I was going to have to create over 50 monsters for the adventure, since nothing from the Monster Manual fits. So as well as an adventure, I have to create the entire bestiary to go with it.

I gotta disagree there...the fell taints are awsome becuse it allows abberations from day 1 (re skin the bullywoog and you can have some great fun)

I read the opening line of the description and it just screamed epic level!

so anyway...please tell us more of your ideas...

Well the first 4E book will be called Vampires & Demons. It will actually cover Levels 6-40 with a fairly even spread throughout (maybe a slight favouring of Levels 25-35), about 55 monsters in all. I have that about 75% written, and I'll be contacting the artist next week.

In future I'll probably concentrate on Levels 21+, but theres just something about designing for 4E, once I create a monster I always want to create something else that would go with it. Maybe its the encounter group format.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello Hereticus!

Approaching 30th level should be like approaching the speed of light.

The closer you get, the harder it is to get there.

If I were running an Epic tier group, there would be more game sessions than usual between levels.

That would certainly make sense from a story perspective, but clearly WotC were looking at things from a gamer perspective, when they made EXP scale evenly from Heroic through Epic tiers. Do gamers want to have to play ten times as long to ascend levels? I don't think so.

I think what you can do instead is make the mountain come to Mohammed so to speak - and accelerate time every tier.

Heroic Tier...potentially level up each week
Paragon Tier...potentially level up each month
Epic Tier...potentially level up each year

Legendary Tier...potentially level up each decade
etc.

This would sort of reflect the passage of time as perceived by immortals.

Just to clarify I am suggesting that PCs still level up at the same rate but that time in the background passes faster.

 

[CapnZapp]

My only thought on this is "more books more money".

Of course they won't be able to resist the temptation to up the level cap.

 

[fireinthedust]

I think they could do that without adding more levels.

Items: you only get +10 items when you've completed a certain number of quests. Already you've got the math bonuses that could be gotten with levels. Item slots like the ring, that you get at Epic, is another option.
Artifacts fits in here, and should also be noted. Rules for Epic Items that allow for more Encounter and Daily powers would be good.

Rituals: like the Epic Seeds 3e, you get more powerful rituals.

Maybe quest-based rewards that only Epic PCs can attain. Do this and you get another Daily Power.

 

[Nymrohd]

I think you can offer more gameplay at level easily without increasing the level cap. First you need enough monsters and exarchs and whatnot to fight for say 20-30 encounters after 30. Then you can just add benefits that level 30 players can buy for XP. Just additional feats with a few unique feats that give you lvl 30 only benefits would be more than OK (say feats like get an extra at-will, replace one power with a higher level one or get an an additional hybrid talent for hybrids?).
There certainly is an issue with extending play beyond level 30 because a few Epic Destinies can offer ridiculous power. Just imagine a loremaster defender with permanent +Strength on all defenses and that is just one of the broken builts . . .

 

[fireinthedust]

I think you can offer more gameplay at level easily without increasing the level cap. First you need enough monsters and exarchs and whatnot to fight for say 20-30 encounters after 30. Then you can just add benefits that level 30 players can buy for XP. Just additional feats with a few unique feats that give you lvl 30 only benefits would be more than OK (say feats like get an extra at-will, replace one power with a higher level one or get an an additional hybrid talent for hybrids?).

This. Brilliant solution, I think. More monsters would be needed, but the geist of Epic level wouldn't have to change. The math, for example, is a different problem from the variety of options. If level 1 lasted for a while but I got more level 1 feats, I could take on more Goblins and Kobolds than I could before.
Epic would be more fun than an eternal level 1, however, because we're talking about advancement and eventual power creep using tertiary options.

I'd say each feat or additional power should cost about the same amount as gaining a level in XP. That way there's some way to measure how powerful the party is, and what creatures need to be thrown at them.