[Hijack] Debate over definition of "grit." Plus: is Midnight gritty?

[Tom Cashel]

He could be a fighter, and that's about it.

He could be lots of things. He just wouldn't be the best. This the change I'm proposing if you want the grit. The Heroic system results in PCs who are always the best. The strict system results in PCs who are 1st level nobodies. But again, there are many ways to gain Ability points, thereby turning "nobodies" into "heroes." Isn't that what level gain is about?

"Below average" hardly equals "lead box" and "lemming." (Not to mention that set would be a good candidate for special consideration--a player could make a good case that you rolled a mulligan.)

I disagree with your assumption that low scores = death. PCs can use a variety of tactics (hopefully more sophisticated than "I'll stand in front; stay behind me," but that's what the PCs blessed with Wisdom and Intelligence are for) to avoid this fate. Plus, I don't care if a PC has 20s across the board--they still die when they fail the wrong save.

They only have to survive until 2nd level spells are available and ability-buffing spells come out of the box.

I still contend that the benefits of strict 3D6 character generation outweigh the drawbacks. The option is an inflated system for PC generation in a system that already favors PCs.

[EDIT: I want to make it crystal clear that I am in no way attacking the Heroic System of character generation. As I said, I used it for years and years, and there is nothing wrong with it. I'm just shining a light on that little nook in which the grit has been hiding while Harn takes all the credit.]

 

[Aaron L]

Someone with those scores shouldn't be adventuring. Actually, they might qualify for the village idiot, stumbling around with that Dex. I'd say that a Dex of 5 is pretty darn near a lead box. (only 5 points away, anyway)


Hackmaster keeps looking cooler and cooler, I'm going to have to get it.

 

[Mystic_23]

Wow. I'm impressed. Gregor quoted Henry's post BEFORE Henry even posted it. He's some sort of ENWorld psychic.

However, to keep this thread on topic, I agree with Henry. If you're trying to go for a gritty game, I'd say go for it. But I wouldn't want to play in a regular D&D game using that system. My problem is rolling the stats in order and keeping them that way. I don't really care to be pidgeonholed into playing one particular class by what stats I get. "Gee...I can only play a fighter...again."

Of course, I'm not trying to tell you how to play the game. If everyone in the group enjoys playing that way, that's fine. I've even played that way and had a good time. I played a game like that where the best stat I had was a 12 dex. I made a rogue who wasn't exactly great at it. I agree it helped to roleplay. I played him as a down-on-his-luck commoner who turned to thievary because it was all he could do. (This was 2nd ed, so don't read anything into "commoner".)

I'd be interested in finding out how your CoC game goes.

Have fun

 

[Mystery Man]

Lessons learned DMing 3E.

Even 4d6 drop lowest is too high.

3E stats are NOT 2E stats.

You do not need 18's in everything to survive.

I would go with 22 point buy. Nice stats for a long term campaign. You get to bump a stat or two up at least a couple times and you can buff yourself with magic items. You don't have 20's all around but you're still a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Tsyr]

HackMaster's character generation requires the roll of a straight 3d6 for each ability.

Hackmaster also has ways to improve ability scores at character generation, remember...

I don't mind 3D6... I just don't like them applied in order, because it can prevent characters from playing the type of character they want... If I hate playing fighters, for exampe, but get high STR and CON and low everything else, well... that kinda sucks.

 

[Tom Cashel]

The point that players should be allowed to freely assign their scores is well-taken. The Grit can be strict without being draconian.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Hackmaster also has ways to improve ability scores at character generation, remember...

Yeah, I remember. Check my second post above.

 

[Desdichado]

How exactly does low stats = grit? I think different people have very different ideas of what grit means. The Matrix was a very gritty movie, for instance, in spite of the over-the-top superheroics.

Low stats have no direct relationship to grit, as far as I'm concerned. And organic stats are even worse -- I don't mind rolling 3d6 for stats, but I hate not being able to place the numbers on my own.

 

[Zerakon]

Re: Looking for the GRIT? Look no further.

Next time I run a game, the players will roll up characters at the table during the first session. There’ll be no fudging, no point-buy, no drop-the-lowest, no re-rolling unless the character’s stats are truly abysmal (no single score above 12). It’ll be 3D6 for each stat, apply in order, and pick a class based on what you get. Use the character’s good and bad qualities as a guide for role-playing, rather than leaning on the alignment crutch.

Don't forget to roll Hit Points at 1st level too. And rerolls are for wimps.

-- Zerakon the Game Mage

 

[Piratecat]

He could be lots of things. He just wouldn't be the best.

Umm.. what?

He can't be a wizard, a cleric, a druid, a sorcerer or a bard - not unless he wants to lose his spellcasting. He'd be an incredibly ineffectual monk, paladin or ranger. Can't realistically be a rogue, either, not even one centered on social skills.

He could be a fighter or a barbarian, I suppose, until he tripped on his own feet and fell off a cliff... or inadvertently insulted someone important. Ooh, ooh, and he'd make a kickass commoner!

So lots of thing? I'm just not seeing it. Tom, what am I missing?

I like gritty Cthulhu and an occasional one-shot, but I think I'll stick with the more heroic scores for D&D.