[Hijack] Debate over definition of "grit." Plus: is Midnight gritty?

[EricNoah]

To me "grit" doesn't have so much to do with ability scores. It has more to do with things like overcoming the abstract nature of hit points (ok, I just fell off a 40' cliff -- what are the repercussions of that besides the fact that I lost 4d6 hp? There's no real D&D mechanic for broken limbs, concussions, stuff like that). It has to do with "adventuring" without some of the standard D&D magic "crutches". Even something simple like light spells or bags of holding. Though I suppose one could argue that one such "crutch" is in fact PCs with higher-than-average ability scores.

 

[Mystery Man]

Holy shiznit!!!

These were all generated using 3d6. One set right after ther other. Swear to god!

14, 14, 5, 12, 9, 16


7, 8, 14, 9, 13, 9


13, 11, 14, 17, 7, 17


10, 14, 13, 13, 11, 10


I'm heading to the casino while I'm still hot.

 

[Tsyr]

Yeah, I remember. Check my second post above.

Ooops

Sorry, CH

 

[Tsyr]

Wanna know why I would never play in a game like you are proposing, tom?

Lets look at 4 fictional characters, all rolled up just now:

15
12
12
14
13
11

9
7
12
11
12
10

8
7
8
14
5
6

14
14
10
3
3
7

That's why.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

To directly address the subject at hand, I have to agree with PC and Eric. Grit can be fun in limited amounts, but after a while I get a bit frustrated; PCs in a gritty game or milieu begin to seem very ineffectual. Cthulhu (BRP or d20 version) is a good example. Being unable to really do much to change one's world is great for evoking a mood of dread and inevitable doom, appropriate for Cthulhu. Matter of fact, that's what sets Cthulhu apart from other RPGs. D&D and most other RPGs are about characters who not only can change their world, but are very often the legendary heroes of that world.

Still, having said that, I've been kicking around the notion of running a campaign in which only the NPC classes from the DMG are used. That strikes me as a gritty way to play. Heck, I might only allow Commoners...

I'm sure my players would lynch me.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

The problem with straight 3d6 rolling is that the range of stats is far too wide.

I've known very few people in my life who would qualify as a 6 in any stat. Most 90 lb. skinny women can probably outdo a STR 6 in terms of lifting, etc.

If you want low, gritty scores, go with a low point buy, but 3d6 gives wacky unrealistic scores.

Look at your circle of friends: How many of them would you say have a 5 as a stat in anything? Roll a set of 6 stats for each friend, and see how many 3's, 4's, and 5's you come up with.

I can see the interest in gettin realistic, but 3d6 isn't a good way of getting there.

 

[sithramir]

I just rolled a set.

3
3
8
6
9
12

What would my character do? I can't even wear clothing i'm so weak. If there was a rock 100 yards away from me i'd trip on it now. I'm at least healtyh enough that I don't require medical aid. I can speak some phrases but a parrot could would win a duel of wits. I have a nice "force of personality" even though you won't be able to make out what i'm trying to tell you without a lot of concentration.

 

[Desdichado]

To directly address the subject at hand, I have to agree with PC and Eric. Grit can be fun in limited amounts, but after a while I get a bit frustrated; PCs in a gritty game or milieu begin to seem very ineffectual. Cthulhu (BRP or d20 version) is a good example. Being unable to really do much to change one's world is great for evoking a mood of dread and inevitable doom, appropriate for Cthulhu. Matter of fact, that's what sets Cthulhu apart from other RPGs. D&D and most other RPGs are about characters who not only can change their world, but are very often the legendary heroes of that world.

But aren't you also a big fan of Midnight? See, here's the logical gap I see. Midnight is clearly a very gritty setting. But it's not because the PCs are weak -- in fact, the races for Midnight are equivalent to ECL +1 races, and the Heroic Paths make them even more powerful. It's the setting itself, and the way the game plays that makes it gritty, not the stats.

 

[apocalypstick]

I'm not sure what the scores have to do with the Grit, as you put it; if you want the Grit, the DM's gotta be the one to put it there.

What you're suggesting is that the characters are average, but what constitutes the average is up to the DM. If the characters have high scores across the board, so do their opponents. Give all those orcs levels in Fighter roughly equivalent to the characters' levels, and you've got your Grit right there.

 

[mhensley]

The problem with straight 3d6 rolling is that the range of stats is far too wide.

I've known very few people in my life who would qualify as a 6 in any stat. Most 90 lb. skinny women can probably outdo a STR 6 in terms of lifting, etc.

If you want low, gritty scores, go with a low point buy, but 3d6 gives wacky unrealistic scores.

Look at your circle of friends: How many of them would you say have a 5 as a stat in anything? Roll a set of 6 stats for each friend, and see how many 3's, 4's, and 5's you come up with.

I can see the interest in gettin realistic, but 3d6 isn't a good way of getting there.

Yep, this is the main problem with the 3d6 curve. A better curve can be had by rolling 5d4 and subtracting 2. Here are 3 characters I just rolled with this method-

10, 10, 9, 8, 11, 11
12, 11, 11, 11, 15, 8
13, 12, 8, 13, 14, 9

Rolls are very weighted towards being average.