Hit dice with no level adjustment?

[the Jester]

I can't think of any creatures with racial hit dice and a LA of +0 in the books (note that a LA of "-" means "this isn't suitable for use as a pc, mate"). I suspect this is because such a creature would be boring as a monster, and the books are generally there to provide challenging, fun encounters.

 

[yennico]

IIRC there exists no LA 0 humanoid, intelligent race with racial hds.

 

[Hypersmurf]

IIRC there exists no LA 0 humanoid, intelligent race with racial hds.

Though for monstrous humanoids, I'll point again to the anthropomorphic animals in Savage Species

-Hyp.

 

[apesamongus]

Try in the animals appendix of the MM.

APE is one. No LA but racial hit dice.

Well, that's what he said, but what he really wants is a LA+0, not No LA.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Thanks, all, for this. It largely confirms what I have suspected, that (in terms of what I'm looking for) it doesn't exist. Nail, thanks for checking the other books for me. Hyp, thanks for the anthropomorphs in SS--I knew about them (from another of your posts, actually!), but it doesn't give sufficient precedent for what I want.

The SRD says "Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. "

The first two sentences can be read to imply that there NEEDS to be an LA with hit dice. the third might suggest that there are some without a level adjustment. I'm not sure that LA +0 counts as an LA for the purposes of the first two sentences (following Jester's distinction).

Since they've not made a playable race w/ 2dice but LA + 0, I'd conclude that this is the way the SRD is meant to be read, that the LA (of at least +1) is (seen by the designers to be) a necessary feature of hit dice in 3.5.

(Here's some races exempli gratia to show what I mean; obviously the table could be filled out):

ECL 1 Human (LA+0 with a class level)
ECL 2 Hobgoblin (LA +1 with a class level).
ECL 3 Drow (LA+2 with a class level).
but no race with 2HD + 0LA + a class level
ECL 4 Svirfneblin (LA+3 with class level)
or Lizard Folk with a class level (2HD+1LA+class level)

More thought is needed.

Again, though, thanks to all for helping me with this.

KS.

 

[Infiniti2000]

but no race with 2HD + 0LA + a class level

Right. Because adding 2HD to a creature is significant. Couple that with likely extra abilities or special abilities that are increased due to HD, and it's obvious.

More thought is needed.

On what? I don't see what there is to think about.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Right. Because adding 2HD to a creature is significant. Couple that with likely extra abilities or special abilities that are increased due to HD, and it's obvious.
... I don't see what there is to think about.

But the thing is, it isn't significant. It is a penalty, because adding 2 hit dice to a creature is always inferior to two class levels, especialy when they're a PC. And sometimes, the extra abilities or special abilities are simply lacking. Lizard folk get nice abilities (2dice, +1LA). Gnolls do not (also 2 dice, +1LA). Lizard folk have substantial benefits. Gnolls do not--certainly nothing that matches the benefit of 2 levels (and starting skills!) from a class--particularly the supposed favorite class, ranger.

This is a hobby horse of mine, but I want to be able to build a viable gnoll without having to resort to templates, or what have you, RAW. And I can't do it. Part of the reason, I think, is the (non-articulated) automatic LA+1 for hit dice. If there were a mechanism for 2 die creatures with +0 LA (or to keep one humanoid die and let the other be a class level but keep the +1 LA) then a gnoll has a chance in the world. As it is, I don't think he does.

Sure, I can houserule gnolls to make them viable, but I want to understand what the designers were thinking when they were made.

Kobold Stew.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I would not compare 2HD to two class levels. Even in your example, it's +1LA, not +2. I can't think of anything off-hand that is 1-for-1 HD with LA. Is there?

In any case, to understand it better, perhaps you should list all the things that the 2HD gives you. I suggest pricing them all as feats or special abilities and see how well that works. Consider the gnoll. He gets:

1. 2HD - this is very useful, particularly at higher levels, because you become more resistant to spells like blasphemy, sleep, etc. IMO, merely on this it is +1LA. Like I said, some special abilities (poison DCs for example) are based on racial HD. There might not be any, sure, but then there might be.
2. +11hp (default) - this is essentially equivalent to 3 and a half feats (toughness) or at least 2 feats (if you houserule toughness to be +5 hp). That's huge.
3. +1 natural armor - This is equivalent to one feat, and one that normal PCs cannot even get. Moreover, it allows you the ability to increase it and gives you access to potentially more feats.
4. Darkvision, etc. - Let's assume some of these abilities are the same as existing races, so this adds no additional benefit.
5. Fort save +3 - This is over and above a feat and a huge advantage.
6. Power attack - This is a feat. The drawback of course is that you're technically required to get it (though as a DM I would allow a player to choose something else at 1HD).
7. STR +4 Con +2 - this is huge and the downside of Int -2 Cha -2 does not even remotely compensate for it for almost any fighter build.
8. BAB +1 - this is better than a feat and essentially weapon focus (any), but then some.
9. Racial skills listen and spot - this may or may not be a benefit, dunno
10. Racial skill points - okay, I think this is a benefit
11. Automatic language - gnoll - okay, this is actually a disadvantage because you would need an Int of 12 or to spend some skill points (which is offset by the 'free' skills above) to gain Common

Anyway, just going through gnoll, I'd argue that it more than warrants a +1LA. Just based purely on the benefits of the additional HD, I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be at least +1LA. HD and all the benefits they bring are very significant.

 

[IcyCool]

This is a hobby horse of mine, but I want to be able to build a viable gnoll without having to resort to templates, or what have you, RAW. And I can't do it. Part of the reason, I think, is the (non-articulated) automatic LA+1 for hit dice. If there were a mechanism for 2 die creatures with +0 LA (or to keep one humanoid die and let the other be a class level but keep the +1 LA) then a gnoll has a chance in the world. As it is, I don't think he does.

We've had a couple of gnoll PCs in our gaming group, and they were perfectly viable. I'm curious to see these non-viable gnoll builds you've got. Could you post one? Maybe we can help you make it viable.

 

[Arbiter of Wyrms]

I believe that the LA system is broken, in regards to many creatures, and that most creatures for whom LA might work have inappropriatly high LAs.

Is a Tiefling with 19 class levels just as powerful as a human with 20?
Is a Centaur with 14 class levels near as powerful as a human with 20?
Is a Grimalkin (MMII) with 1 class level as powerful as a human with 8 class levels?