Hit or Miss: Odd Wording on Avenger Powers

[Danceofmasks]

It is not an action at all ... when do "no action"s occur?

 

[DracoSuave]

It's not during the attack, which is what it would do if it interrupted. Resolve the attack, apply the damage. If it interrupted, it would say so. (It can't be used to prevent an attack from happening this way.)

 

[Blizzardb]

It is not an interrupt, but it is also not a reaction. I always used it as a reaction (after the attack resolved), but the different avenger wording "hit or miss" let me to think that it maybe is supposed to happen at the moment the attack is declared.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well your options are before the attack, during the attack, and after the attack. The ability is triggered by the attack, and does not interrupt it or alter the attack, so it would happen after the attack. Something marked 'hit or miss' applies after the hit or miss.

The thing is, the attack includes the damage, the hit or miss does not. So there's no way without an interrupt or alteration of the attack for it to occur before damage. And because it's not an interrupt, it can't change the results of the attack anyways.

 

[Blizzardb]

The thing is, the attack includes the damage, the hit or miss does not.

I am not sure that I agree with this statement. Another possible interpretation is that the "hit" includes the damage, and the attack does not.

 

[Danceofmasks]

But it's irrelevant.
Sometimes triggers cause things to happen.
The only thing triggers cause that don't occur right away are immediate reactions.
Everything else, including opportunity actions, free actions, no actions, whatever ... simply occurs at the trigger.

 

[Blizzardb]

But it's irrelevant.
Sometimes triggers cause things to happen.
The only thing triggers cause that don't occur right away are immediate reactions.
Everything else, including opportunity actions, free actions, no actions, whatever ... simply occurs at the trigger.

The debate, as I understand it, is if the damage from the enemy attack is included in the trigger (the attack), or happens after it.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

A quick, possibly related wording issue:

There are several powers in PHB2 (sorry, book not available) for which there is a result that occurs on both Hit and Miss, and that would appear to be more concisely stated as an Effect.

Can anyone think of a reason for this wording?

 

[Blizzardb]

About the divine challenge - here is the perspective of Wizards CS:

The target takes damage as soon as it declares an attack that doesn't include the paladin for the first time that turn, and before any attack rolls are made.

Please let me know if you need anymore help!

I will play it this way - effects triggered on enemy attack happen before the attack is rolled, effects triggered on enemy hit or miss happen after damage is rolled (if any damage is rolled).

Yes, I know many people don't like CS answers, but in this particular case I agree with their ruling.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

A quick, possibly related wording issue:

There are several powers in PHB2 (sorry, book not available) for which there is a result that occurs on both Hit and Miss, and that would appear to be more concisely stated as an Effect.

Can anyone think of a reason for this wording?

The simplest explanation is "what if the attack neither hits nor misses?"

This CAN happen. Suppose an attack is made against a PC and a power is triggered which causes the attack to fail. It neither hits nor misses, and thus a power that triggers on a "hit or a miss" is never triggered. The most likely cases would be say a warlord in your party shifts you out of attack range.

These are pretty uncommon corner cases, but they happen often enough that CS gets bombarded with questions about them, and that costs WotC money, and they would rather just make the wording precise enough so people can figure it out on their own. Gets a bit arcane, but it is an exacting set of rules.