Hit Point style preference

[Fanaelialae]

I guess an easy third option would be:

Plot Immunized Rocket Tag - Attacks and defenses are fairly static. You have a stable pool of 'Wound Points,' and damage to that represents actual physical wounds. Then you have 'Hit Points,' which represent you turning a hit into a graze. When someone 'hits' you, you lose HP, and if you're out of HP you take WP damage.

You might also make it so HP soaks all but 1 damage, and attacks always deal at least 1 WP (that's the graze).

Design mechanics with this logic. So poison only affects you if the attack deals any WP damage. Falling down a steep hill? Maybe HP mitigates the fall. Falling with no way to catch yourself? WP damage. Caught off guard by an assassin? WP damage. A purple worm has a 'swallow' attack? It only works if the PC's out of HP.

You might recover all your HP after a short rest, and warlords might be able to shout at you to restore your HP, but only rest or magic can fix WP damage.

Monsters would have to be designed with some odd mix of WP and HP. Humanoids would have low WP and get more HP based on level/challenge rating. Big monsters might have no HP and just WP, or a lot of each.

I like the idea of using a damage threshold mechanic for something like this.

So, for example, perhaps your Fighter has a physical threshold of 16. He doesn't suffer any wounds falling down the hill because that only deals 10 damage. He loses 10 hp because he reaches the bottom of the hill a bit sore, but he's effectively unharmed. If he suffers 20 hp damage by falling off a cliff, on the other hand, he suffers an injury (wound point) from the fall, because his threshold was exceeded.

I prefer to extend the idea further, so that conditions are only applied if your threshold is exceeded. If a snake exceeds your threshold it bites you and you're poisoned, while if it doesn't exceed your threshold all you lose are a few hp from a near miss.

 

[RangerWickett]

I was thinking of melee combat. A few seconds of swinging a sword ought to yield a wound fairly often, unless you're being a cautious fighter and keeping your distance to avoid possible counterattack.

Hm. Are ranged attacks too accurate in D&D?

 

[Fanaelialae]

While I agree with your point, that's a terrible example, since most soldiers never hit anyone with any of the shots they fire. It's the true professionals who even hit on a natural 20. (Snipers are the notable exception. They hit more than half the time.)

I'm talking about medieval soldiers surrounding the fighter with swords, not modern soldiers with guns. Completely different story.

Anyone with experience can tell you that fighting multiple opponents at once in a melee is quite difficult, while fighting at 10:1 odds is virtually impossible without some significant equalizer (such as a choke point).

That isn't to say that such a thing doesn't belong in D&D, because D&D can be about heroic fantasy where things don't need to be realistic. In a gritty game, however, those kinds of odds should mean you're most likely a dead man, regardless of your level. At that point the only question is how many of them you can take with you.

 

[mmadsen]

I'm talking about medieval soldiers surrounding the fighter with swords, not modern soldiers with guns. Completely different story.

In that case, it doesn't seem at all odd that a supremely skilled swordsman would hit his lesser foe 19 times out of 20 and only get hit in return 1 time in 20.

Anyone with experience can tell you that fighting multiple opponents at once in a melee is quite difficult, while fighting at 10:1 odds is virtually impossible without some significant equalizer (such as a choke point).

Certainly, but the problem there isn't that the master swordsman is only hit 1 time in 20; it's that the odds don't change, in our hypothetical example, because he's surrounded. If he had to split his +20 defensive bonus across attackers, that would handle that.

That isn't to say that such a thing doesn't belong in D&D, because D&D can be about heroic fantasy where things don't need to be realistic. In a gritty game, however, those kinds of odds should mean you're most likely a dead man, regardless of your level. At that point the only question is how many of them you can take with you.

Yeah, for a game like D&D, you have to decide if "cleaving" is easy, if "defensive expertise" should help against all attackers, etc., in order to make mowing down orc hordes even easier.

 

[Frostmarrow]

I like plot immunized rocket tag. We currently use Vitality/Wound points in a 3.5 game and it works really well. Glad we opted for it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Actually i liked how old school D&D changed from rocket tag towards plot immunity over the course of your career.

So the time you invested into a character correlates to his plot immunity.

Also: old schoold D&D had rocket tag added on special ocassions: save or die spells.
D&D4e somehow lost it. (although The lurker type monsters do so much damage, that you could actually be killed in few moments...)

My perfect D&D would be a mix of old school D&D, very lethal at low level (1-2 solid hits, going up to 3-4 solid blows with slightly lower chance to hit.) There should be some exceptional monsters, that either do very much damage if they can get into special advantageous positions, or do other killing effects after a certain setup.

One hit kills at high level are very unclimatic and plot unfriendly... 1 round to react to almost anything seems fair.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I am more a fan of trying to only scale hit points and damage (maybe via #attacks, maybe just by adding damage bonuses), and leave most modifiers and die rolls the same or have them only grow very slowly.

Rocket Tag isn't particular fun and relies too much on pure luck than actual decisions the party made - how to maneuver, how to position, how to neutralize foes, how to ensure that they will deal more damage than the enemy in the same amount of time. Tactics over Luck.

Added benefit is you can still use the stats of a Level 1 Goblin against a Level 30 PC and have reasonable to hit chances - even if he deals pathetic damage alone, you can send 60 of them. You don't even need to "minionize" him, as the PC probably deals enough damage on a hit to kill a 1st level monster anyway.

 

[Greg K]

"Rocket Tag" despite thinking that it is a loaded term.

I think that that there are several ways to duplicate the traditional aspects of hit points using existing elements from d20.

Skill: Dodge, Combat Expertise, Class Defense Bonus to defense, a feat or class ability that would allow you to reduce damage on a save (you could always add one to the fighter that allows them in melee to make a Reflex save vs 10+1/2 the opponent's BAB to reduce the damage by half or reduce a crit to a normal attack)

Divine intervention/Luck: Hero Points, Saving Throw results

Plot Immunity: Hero Points

 

[Fanaelialae]

In that case, it doesn't seem at all odd that a supremely skilled swordsman would hit his lesser foe 19 times out of 20 and only get hit in return 1 time in 20.


Certainly, but the problem there isn't that the master swordsman is only hit 1 time in 20; it's that the odds don't change, in our hypothetical example, because he's surrounded. If he had to split his +20 defensive bonus across attackers, that would handle that.


Yeah, for a game like D&D, you have to decide if "cleaving" is easy, if "defensive expertise" should help against all attackers, etc., in order to make mowing down orc hordes even easier.

In the real world, even a master swordsman would lose to 10:1 odds, short of some significant equalizer. That kind of thing only occurs in heroic fiction.

If the horde had a reasonable chance to hit, it could also be handled (much more simply than a divisible defense bonus) by giving them a predictable, reasonable (50%?) chance to hit the Fighter. Then just dial up (or down) hp to your desired level of lethality. Want the Fighter to be able to take on 10 soldiers with fair odds of winning? Use the option that gives him 100 hp at level x. Want him to be able to take on 1000 orcs? Dial him up to 50,000 hp. Want him to get creamed by 5 soldiers? Dial him down to 25 hp.

You also get the benefit that creatures don't only hit on a crit, without having to roll to confirm (which is an unnecessary and, IMO, undesirable mechanic).

 

[Plane Sailing]

Rocket Tag every time for me.