Hit Points at half?

[the-golem]

I don't think your rogue quite grasps the assassin concept. Firstly, I'd wager that the majority of assassinations would be against high ranking mucky-mucks with an approximate "level" of zero. This is basically equivalent to being a minion.

Secondly, traditional assassins are sneaky-types that like to sneak up on people while they're defenseless and probably unconsious. If my target were in such a condition, then I should be able to one-hit kill them. Fighting someone who is both awake, aware, and likely armed, is *not* going to go down in one hit.

I'd suggest throwing some skill-based encounters in which hears about a corrupt government official, and has to track down his residence, sneak past a bunch of guards, and off him while he's napping. Were I an assassin-type, I'd be excited about something like this.

 

[eriktheguy]

One solution is to introduce a class of monsters with the same stats as standards, but any hit landed on them auto-crits. Call them "normals", "rank-and-file" or whatever and award 50% or 66% xp for their defeat.

Have you play tested this, or do you have a link? It seems like such a thing would come up rarely enough that most of them would be as tough as a full standard. Until epic tier crits aren't that common, except for some specific builds.

 

[Ahnirades]

Have you play tested this, or do you have a link? It seems like such a thing would come up rarely enough that most of them would be as tough as a full standard. Until epic tier crits aren't that common, except for some specific builds.

The idea is that all successful hits on 'rank-and-file' automatically crit, regardless of attack roll.

The closest I came to using it was a variant where all hits (whether pc or monster) critted across the board. It made combat lightning fast but my players found it a bit too brutal. The rank-and-file idea was a compromise, but we never got round to testing it.

Another (also untested) idea I'm considering uses action points: After scoring a successful hit against a standard monster of your level or lower spend an AP. If the monster currently has more hit points than it's bloodied value it drops to bloodied. If the monster's hit points are at bloodied or lower it's instantly killed.

I've tentatively called it Swift Conclusion and hope to give it a shake when I start an all-Essentials game soon.

 

[keterys]

I'm all for faster games, but it's very group dependent. For example, there was one group I was in where I suggested a 20% decrease in monster hit points and adding 1/2 their level to their damage - ie, cause we were too tough, and really didn't do that much damage.

In another group, a combat that goes longer than 3 rounds is almost unheard of, with no house rules whatsoever and not even that much focus on damage.

In a group a friend of mine sat at, things are generally wrapped up before the monsters get to go in the second round of combat.

There's a crazy difference in potential damage just based on character optimization and treasure.
How many combats a group has per day makes a big difference in how many dailies they can bring to bear.
Whether a group gets action points for skill challenges can make a big difference on those.
Monster Selection
Etc.

 

[keterys]

Heh, fair enough. I guess what I'm saying is... if some groups are wanting to halve the hp, and other groups you need to increase by half the hp (honest, it's recommended in one of the LFR modules for groups like that), it'd be useful to have a more firm idea of what the actual goal is and how much damage they're doing.

An 8th level monster has about 90hp, give or take. How much work do you want an 8th level striker to have to go through to kill the monster? If it's pretty easy, then a group of 5 strikers can alpha strike an entire group off the map every combat.

Let's say you've got an 8th level Scout focused on dealing damage - 1d8 or 1d6 base damage, 20 stat, +2 weapon that crits for 2d8, +2 item bonus, +1 weapon focus, +1 two-weapon fighting, with CA +1 light blade expertise & stance that grants +2 dmg... so base damage 1d8+14, two attacks and a power strike nets you 2d8+1d6+28, or an average (40.5) of just under half of the monster's hp (45) before factoring misses. If he crits on one attack, 56.5 damage, crits on both it's 68 damage.

A thief in a similar setup would be backstabbing for 3d8+2d6+14, or 34.5 avg, 59 crit - with the note that the thief is extremely unlikely to miss with backstabs.

If either APs, add 1d8+14 (18.5) damage, 31 crit.

So that gives us an expected range of 34.5 - 40.5, an easy burst (AP) of 53-59, and a 'Yay crits!' of 56.5 - 90. All without having a leader to Decisive Tactics or Inspired Belligerence, or grant a free basic attack (Bravura), etc. A group of such strikers will drop an equal number of monsters in 2 rounds, every combat, in theory.

If you change the whole equation so instead it's a paladin with no damage feats, then he's doing 2d8+6, and that's a lot less notable. Either way, bam, halving hp might be too much to do all at once, and you might be able to just use a lot more artillery or skirmishers, or less elites and solos where it really is a lot more like chipping away at hp.

 

[Kingreaper]

Consider using Elite Minions.

Normal Minions go down in one hit to anyone: this makes the rogue's extra damage irrelevant, so obviously that's not going to help with the rogue.

Normal monsters never go down in one, they're too tough.

Elite minions that get hurt become bloodied, and bloodied ones that get hurt die. But if you deal more than X damage (I've been using their fortitude defence, but I'm not sure if that works at all levels) they go down in one.

It gives the rogue meaningful enemies (elite minions can have better powers than normal minions) that still go down in one.

 

[eriktheguy]

Consider using Elite Minions.

Normal Minions go down in one hit to anyone: this makes the rogue's extra damage irrelevant, so obviously that's not going to help with the rogue.

Normal monsters never go down in one, they're too tough.

Elite minions that get hurt become bloodied, and bloodied ones that get hurt die. But if you deal more than X damage (I've been using their fortitude defence, but I'm not sure if that works at all levels) they go down in one.

It gives the rogue meaningful enemies (elite minions can have better powers than normal minions) that still go down in one.

I've seen this idea before and thought about using it. Out of curiosity, how many 'elite minions' to one standard monster?

 

[Kingreaper]

I've seen this idea before and thought about using it. Out of curiosity, how many 'elite minions' to one standard monster?

I've been going with 2 or 3 so far.

3 if they're essentially just tougher minions, 2 if I actually give them something (other than the 2-hits rule) that makes them special. (ie. increased damage, the ability to mark opponents on an elite Legion Devil, etc.)

Essentially I view it as: a true elite minion should be worth two minions. But, honestly, I can't be bothered to make true elite minions all the time, and so sometimes I just slap eliteness onto a normal minion.

 

[eriktheguy]

I'm looking for a way to install some 3e style battles into my 4e game. The idea is to use monsters with much less hp without having to resort to minions (or bloodied/elite minions). The lower life totals in monster manual 3 are great for most fights, but I want some fights to be even faster. I want to throw more monsters at my PCs with less HP, for a shorter battle that is still a threat.

My instinct is to use monsters with HP/damage stats similar to monster manual 3, then to cut HP in half. I figure that two encounters of 5 standard half-hp monsters, or one encounter of 7-8 of these monsters, should be equivalent to an encounter of 5 full hp monsters. The half-HP encounters should be much shorter. A hard encounter can use 10 of these half-HP standards. (all numbers are for a 5 player party).

This puts same-level skirmishers in the HP range where a striker can kill them with a decent encounter or daily, and almost anyone can kill them with a decent crit.

So this is pretty similar to your idea. I'm going to give it a shot this Friday.

 

[dangerous jack]

50% hp worked well again in last night's session. I threw 5 Krenshars (MM2 level 5) at my party of 3 PCs (level 6) and had a decently long combat, but it felt a little faster and there was no grind at all. I rolled terribly after the first round though, so this might not be an accurate example of how well it could work.

I also gave the Krenshars the ability to knock prone (in addition to the grab) an enemy they hit with both attacks, which worked really well from a dramatic perspective when the cleric was pinned to the ground in round 1, and then threw the Krenshar off him with an awesome escape roll.