Hit Points & Healing Surges Finally Explained!

[Mallus]

Its pretty funny considering the subject matter, but this has become a thread of attrition.

The characters in this thread have a lot of Talking Surges!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Its pretty funny considering the subject matter, but this has become a thread of attrition.

Meh. Consider me attritted.

If I (and others) failed to convince a significant proportion of the posters in the SW thread, well, there are still folks who believe that the world is flat, or that the moon landing didn't happen. Someone refusing to accept an argument is no evidence that the argument is flawed. Indeed, my parsing out the options in the SW thread was awesome.

It was so awesome that, from the podcast, I get the pretty strong impression that WotC agrees with my parsing, even if some folks here do not.

The best things about the SW thread were (1) that firesnakeries managed to add an option that I had missed in my initial parsing, and (2) that enough people understood well enough to offer some very helpful mods to the system. And that was even more awesome than the parsing of the RAW options. IMHO, at least.

Anyway, if there are folks here who still want to argue what you (clearly) can and cannot do in the 4e system, I wish you the best of luck with your positions. As I said upthread, I have no interest in Cut & Pasting the arguments from that thread to this. It has been done to death.

From where I'm sitting, it seems like discussing the health merits of tobacco with smoking lobbyists.


RC

 

[Harlekin]

The mechanics for older edition healing treated hp loss like physical wounds.
4E mechanics treat all hp loss like stun damage. Something between the two would be great.

This. Where older editions of D&D created a host of silly issues when healing all but the last 1-10 hp, 4th edition works fine in that range but creates a host of silly issues when healing the last 1-10 hp. The systems are equally abstract, but the abstraction is visible at different ends of the spectrum.

 

[Lacyon]

enough people understood well enough to offer some very helpful mods to the system. And that was even more awesome than the parsing of the RAW options. IMHO, at least.

Well, we can agree to that at least

 

[Fifth Element]

If I (and others) failed to convince a significant proportion of the posters in the SW thread, well, there are still folks who believe that the world is flat, or that the moon landing didn't happen.

Surely you see what a ridiculous argument that is. It implies "anyone who disagrees with me is just denying objective reality." That comes off as pretty arrogant, though I invite you to rephrase if that wasn't the intent. There is no objective reality here, just interpretations of imaginary things. Your assertion is that a certain imaginary thing can only be interpreted in one way. Others disagree, and provide examples as to why your 'only way' argument is not correct.

Someone refusing to accept an argument is no evidence that the argument is flawed.

No, but fortunately there were many specific points about how your argument is flawed in the other thread.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Well, we can agree to that at least

That's true.

RC

 

[roguerouge]

What sword and sorcery genre novels have you been reading where the protagonist requires extended bed rest after being injured? Can you give three examples? Sword and sorcery heroes are almost never incapacitated, other than perhaps being knocked out and captured, and certainly NEVER receive any wounds of lasting effect.

Actually, a few years ago I read a short story by Robert E Howard which featured a barbarian king. I can't remember the title, but it was a short story. He fought this enormous dragon-python with a very poisonous bite. After defeating it, he was nursed back to health over what read like several months, but could have been several weeks. It could have been Cormac, Kull, or Bran Mak Morn.

And, of course, Frodo takes quite a while to recover from his Black Rider wound, doesn't he? Left increasingly incapacitated from a stabbing, and even when cured, there's lingering effects over a long period of time,

Not sure if these next two count as sword and sorcery, but John Constantine's long bout with lung cancer and various ass-kickings might also fit your criterion. As might Barbara Gordon's paralysis at the hands of the Joker.

 

[Hussar]

Frodo Baggins perhaps? He needed quite a bit of recovery time
for his wound, which also never "fully" healed.

His uncle Bilbo was laid out by a nasty cold in The Hobbit.

The problem isn't that there are situations where the hero can shrug
off the effects of injury and keep going, you are correct that this happens
quite a bit in the fantasy genre.
A situation where every little scrape incapacitated a PC for days wouldn't
be very desirable either. A system that supports a bit of both is a happy
medium. In some older editions all healing was sometimes a bit too slow
for abstact hp. In 4E its the opposite, all healing is just a bit too fast.

The mechanics for older edition healing treated hp loss like physical wounds.
4E mechanics treat all hp loss like stun damage. Something between the two would be great.

Oh, you said Sword and Sorcery fiction. Sorry, your genre use is wrong.

OTOH, Frodo is attacked by a cave troll, slammed against a wall to the point where everyone thinks that he is dead. Everyone is crying and wailing. They roll Frodo over, he spends his healing surges and poof, his "mithril armor saved him".

Ret conned damage from the king of fantasy himself.

 

[Hussar]

People have pointed to REH's work. And, yes, occassionally there is an extended rest in there. Usually Conan being tended by the love interest. If there is no plot reason for the extended rest, it never happens. Conan shakes off the wound and off he goes.

It's funny, you can name any number of genre examples of characters using Healing surges, yet, for some reason, they aren't considered at all. Exploder quotes from The Lord of the Rings yet ignores Frodo's mithril armor. Constantine is mentioned, yet, the fact that his lung cancer never actually stops him from doing anything, isn't.

Look, I think this is straying somewhat off topic, so, let's have it out shall we? We'll start naming examples from genre or popular fiction where you have extended rests and healing surges/second winds and we'll see who runs out first.

Who's game?

 

[Scribble]

People have pointed to REH's work. And, yes, occassionally there is an extended rest in there. Usually Conan being tended by the love interest. If there is no plot reason for the extended rest, it never happens. Conan shakes off the wound and off he goes.

It's funny, you can name any number of genre examples of characters using Healing surges, yet, for some reason, they aren't considered at all. Exploder quotes from The Lord of the Rings yet ignores Frodo's mithril armor. Constantine is mentioned, yet, the fact that his lung cancer never actually stops him from doing anything, isn't.

Look, I think this is straying somewhat off topic, so, let's have it out shall we? We'll start naming examples from genre or popular fiction where you have extended rests and healing surges/second winds and we'll see who runs out first.

Who's game?

See for me, because I try not to associate HP "damage" with physical wounds, when I watch movies and associate it with a game, I see them taking HP damage left and right, even when they're not actually getting hit.

Frodo and the cave troll I see as a death save. Everyone is looking at Frodo hoping he rolls that DC 20.

Frodo and the stab... now that I see as something special. Frodo's DM made a special attack that uses the disease track, and then has some sort of lasting curse effect.

Man Frodo's DM was a jerk.