Hit points & long rests: please consider?

[Walking Dad]

I wouldn't bet on this. But it is certainly possible.

 

[Walking Dad]

I do think a long rest should be longer than a single night. I am good with a more rapid return of hit points for a single night of long rest, but as the amount of hit points increase I guess I have a harder time buying that one is going to recover all of their hit points in a single night of rest without magical aide.

But what the HP stand for is not changed by their increase. A fighter with 82 HP still shows no sign of injury after loosing 40 HP. Why would he need multiple nights to "heal"?

 

[infax]

You point is well taken [MENTION=56189]Kzach[/MENTION]. The core healing mechanic will have a significant impact on the feel of the game for new players. I believe, however, that new players should be exposed to a slower healing mechanic.

Even taking into consideration that luck, fatigue and morale are a big part of healing points, I do not believe that a character who goes too low on hit points would recover fatigue and morale to full after a night's rest. Who can say at what speed one recovers luck - still, someone would have to be pretty lucky to escape with his life from being crushed by an ogre's massive club which was aimed squarely at one's chest two or three days in a row!

Still, I believe that allowing a character to recover HP with Hit Dice after a long rest would be generous enough. After a night's rest, a character maybe fully functional again, albeit something is still amiss. So, the character may have a gash down his arm after the previous day's fight in which he was reduced below half his HP. He rolls HD and is back to full HP, so he shrugs off the damage and can fight pretty well again, but he is still aware that his body has its limits and he can't keep going on forever like that before stopping and recovering properly (this is represented by reduced HD).

Recovering 1HD per night of full rest would seem generous enough for me.

[MENTION=59043]Walking Dad[/MENTION] 's point is good, however. I would prefer that spells also not be recovered on a daily basis either. The daily rhythm for recovery is really immersion-breaking for me. I would suggest recovering spells (and HP) at a much slower rate, maybe 20% per long rest. But that would probably piss off too many players expecting tradition. I'm not even sure a rule like that will see the light of day in a module. So, most likely, parties will still rely heavily on a healer of some sort (previously a cleric and now a character with herbalism which is very potent on itself).

 

[Puggins]

There's clearly room for compromise here. I think most people would agree that regaining everything in one night isn't absolutely necessary for maintaining dramatic tension, and that most would also agree that regaining 1-4 hp a night is also unnecessary to reflect pseudo-reality.

How about a full night's rest gets you back all your hit dice, but you must spend them to get to half hit points. Once you do, the remainder (the luck/skill ones) are fully healed by the night rest.

Example: Ironwolf the fighter has 80hp and 10d12 hit dice. She is forced down to 20hp at the end of the day. After a night's rest, she has to roll d12's until she gets to 40. It takes her 4 dice rolls to get there. She wakes up with 80hp and 6d12 hit dice available, and will need further rest to recover from the previous days' trials.

Heck, also penalize a drop below 0hp by immediately taking away one hit dice.

Just one example. There's plenty of creative space here to reflect both sides to a certain extent.

 

[IronWolf]

But what the HP stand for is not changed by their increase. A fighter with 82 HP still shows no sign of injury after loosing 40 HP. Why would he need multiple nights to "heal"?

Because I am not sure how a person recovers hit points at rate of 40 hit points per night. Or as we scale upwards an even greater number of hit points per night.

Furthering your example, so now the fighter with 82 hit points is down 72 hit points. He still should recover all of them, guaranteed? I mean now he has cuts and bruises and is noticeably injured. Overnight he goes to having no signs of cuts or bruises that are visible?

I would rather see the hit dice mechanic played out a bit more for long rests a little more. Where a long rest might get you a good chunk of hit points back (possibly all of them if you roll really well) but it wouldn't be guaranteed.

So I am not against accelerated healing for a long rest that is defined as a single night's rest. Just not a big fan of guaranteed back to full health in one night's rest. I think there is room for an in-between here.

 

[The Red King]

This is a request to the greater D&D playing population to please consider the feedback you're going to give in regards to this mechanic.

I'll state it flat out: I am on the side that approves of a long rest regaining all hit points. I would ask that those reading this look at my arguments and try to view the matter from a holistic rather than personal viewpoint.

I completely understand people who say they dislike the mechanic. What I disagree with is on the fundamental nature of injury in D&D. I feel that those who oppose the mechanic don't agree with the statements made about injury and the goals of the injury system. Disagreeing with it is your prerogative, of course, and I wouldn't want to tell anyone how to run their games. What I'm asking people to consider is the way in which D&D has always MEANT to be run, from its very inception and throughout every edition. This is what the long rest mechanic is designed to represent.

So before people say it's a horrible mechanic and they want to get rid of it, I'd propose that they consider that to change it is inconsequential to their own games. It's little more than a hand wave. But the tradition and impression of the game on new players is important and should be kept intact regardless of personal preference.

To this end I would like to refer people to Mike Mearl's stated team design objectives when creating the mechanic:

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Hit Points, Our Old Friend)



EDIT: Sorry, I wasn't clear.

What I meant was that hit points have always been 'luck, skill, near misses' until you got to 0 hit points.

Remember that taking a 'long rest' only works if you're already on at least 1 hit point. So if you're 0 or lower, it won't work. It requires 2d6 hours to get to 1 hit point from stabilised and it requires three successful death saves (irrespective of the fact that death saves are a low DC) to become stabilised. Either that, or you need magical or mundane healing of some type which burns a HD.

So you are saying that hit points are meant to be just bumps and bruises from that dragon's breath weapon, but that final fall down a flight of stairs for 3 hitpoints is what killed the powerful fighter?


Really?

 

[seregil]

Great how people discuss getting back to fully operational after some cuts and bruises (that is HP between half max and 1) is totally unrealistic, even than using fantasy herb medicine and a healer's kit, but regaining all magical might to throw balls of flames or resurrect the dead should be regained on daily base...

The difference is that when you use the kit, you are using an ability, albeit a mundane one.

When you use herbs, you using a resources.

So, theoretically, you can run out or fail.

Mind you, I am not against some sort of rest= healing.

I would propose that natural healing can heal you from 50% to 100%, but if you are below 50%, simple rest is not enough.

Not perfect, but better, imo, than poof! you ok!.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

Herman the Wise's idea mixed with what IronWolf just said strikes me as the right combination for a more believable natural healing.

If you drop below 0 hit points, you are wounded and unconscious. You wake up with 1 hit point in 2d6 hours, but gain disadvantage to pretty much everything while you are wounded. Wounds take time to heal (say, 2d6 days, or based on an optional injury chart.) While wounded, you are disadvantaged on most rolls and take movement penalties.

A long rest doesn't recover any hit points directly, but recovers hit dice, which may be rolled immediately. This way, perhaps an injured character will roll well and recover most or all of his hit points, but he'll be low on hit dice for the next day.

Something like this is what I would prefer, but I'd be willing to accept it as an optional rule.

 

[Kzach]

Surely, we don't only have 1 HP of physical 'life' (at any level) and everything else is 'luck, skill, near misses'?

So you are saying that hit points are meant to be just bumps and bruises from that dragon's breath weapon, but that final fall down a flight of stairs for 3 hitpoints is what killed the powerful fighter?

You're both coming at it from the wrong direction. You're interpreting hit points to have a direct correlation to an amount of damage and although the system does give that impression, it's a false impression from years of poorly worded phrases such as 'hit points' and 'damage'.

The fact is that the only 'hit point' that matters in terms of actual, physical injury to the character, is the very last hit point. In this sense, every character has only one REAL hit point.

How they get to a point where their actual life and actual physical injury are a risk is what all the other hit points represent. They're the buffer between death and Die Hard beat downs.

So whether it was a cat scratch or falling down a flight of stairs is irrelevant. The damage that tipped your character from 1 hit point to 0 hit points is the only one that matters. The cat nicked an artery in the leg, the fall cracked the spine, etc.

And even then, it doesn't matter so much that the PC (and it should be also considered that this is for PC's who are, in all aspects, special considerations above and beyond the norm) took an injury or how life threatening it was because ultimately a few bandages, a bit of rest and they're back in business. So it wasn't really all that life-threatening after all. It was a close call, a bit scary, but it wasn't the life-ending sword through the gut that spilled the intestines out onto the muddy ground at their feet. That blow is the one that takes them from 0 to minus Con + Level.

However, where the problem arises is when a character hits zero or below. This is the sword in the gut, the broken leg or such forth. And this damage should not be quickly healed except through magic. I'm still working out exactly what happens here but I'm sensing the rules allow an easy progression from stabilized to 1hp and THIS is where the real issue lies for me; and where I will be looking for an advanced module to pick up the slack.

Again I think you're misinterpreting what an injury actually is in D&D. The 'sword in the gut' is an injury that takes your character to the very brink of death and the very brink of death in this system is somewhere between 0 and minus Con + Level.

If your fighter has 80 hit points, then everything between 80 and 1 is luck, skill, minor cuts, scrapes, bruises, etc. Sword in the gut would be something along the lines of -10 or so hit points where they've got a genuine chance of dying. Anything before that simply ISN'T a sword in the gut type of wound. And if you're playing it that every blow is some sort of devastating effect then that's fine, that's your game, but it IS NOT how the hit point system is intended to work and if you're not using it how it's intended to work, then OF COURSE you're going to have problems with it.

Adapt it, by all means, change it to how you want it to work, but the core concept of hit points has always remained the same from day 1 of D&D and I believe it should remain that way in the core rules. Have alternate, modular rules for lingering wounds, etc. but make the modular and not part of the basic, core system.

It should also be noted that the core system in the playtest doesn't allow you to take a 'long rest' if you're below 1 hit point.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm in favour of the same houserule I use for 4e.

Long rests heal everything. They just take the best part of a week somewhere safe rather than a night camped out in the middle of nowhere. What this means, however, is that the wizard also only regains spells with a week with a library or lab rather than camped out in the middle of nowhere. I consider this an improvement - not everyone does.