Hit Points vs. Morale Points

[urbanfractal]

Greetings.

I don't know if this has been discussed before and how, but here is my concern.

Characters attack and get a healing surge, characters attack and adjacent (not always necessarily) characters get healing surge. Or temporary hit points.

Imho that is somewhat uninspired. I can understand that d&d has a more Hasbro-inclined facade nowadays than a Mature-RPG-one, so I am not complaining about that (anymore). There is no point, really, since it's up to the DM to make the game as she wishes.

So with no further ado, here is my case:

What if Hit Points were taken into mind as Morale Points. When the Cleric showers her Deity's wrath (any cleric attack) upon the hideous goblin (or X enemy creature) and it is engulfed in a gold light and wounds start appearing on it (or whatever) then hell yeah, another character will think "we WILL wipe this bloody miserable token of existance from the face of this world" thus the Morale Surge, or temp Morale Points.

Q: So what about when MP (former HP) run out?
A: Well, then your defences are down, your attacks are wary and your mind is not as focused as should be. I suggest a -2 penalty in all rolls and your constitution score becomes your actual HP (it is familiar to the Star Wars system with Vitality and Wound points). You DON'T receive actual Con damage.
Further on, when these HP are depleted you can last for CON modifier or 3 rounds before dying (whichever is grater). Others can stabilize you with a Heal check and/or challenge and you "reset" to 1 HP and fall unconcious.

Q: So a Healer cannot "heal" whatsoever?
A: Yes she can. Whenever she uses a power with the "Healing" keyword, the recepient of the "good" effect (i.e no the enemy) can choose to "heal" half as much HP as she would normally gain MP. Ofcourse that makes actual "healing" much more important (which is good fluff).

Q: What about Healing Potions?
A: Well, they could be working the same as above, meaning full MP or half as much HP gain. I don't think their market price should be affected by that.

So what do you think?

 

[FireLance]

So effectively all hit points in excess of Constitution are due to morale? Or do characters get morale points equal to their normal hit point total and then get their Constitution score worth of actual hit points on top of that?

The former would encourage leader role PCs to heal early and often to avoid the penalty and the reduced healing rate when hit points drop below Constitution score.

The latter would make characters slightly more durable, but would not otherwise affect the game much.

Personally, I would just run with the standard assumption that hit points include morale, so an increase in morale effectively "heals" a character. He has taken wounds, but he can still fight and avoid lethal attacks until his morale (or luck, or willpower, or magical defenses, or divine protection) runs out.

 

[urbanfractal]

So effectively all hit points in excess of Constitution are due to morale? Or do characters get morale points equal to their normal hit point total and then get their Constitution score worth of actual hit points on top of that?

The first option never occured to me before. I believe it is a nice touch and urges the Players to be less reckless and the Leader characters to be more responsible in their roles during combat encounters.

Personally, I would just run with the standard assumption that hit points include morale, so an increase in morale effectively "heals" a character. He has taken wounds, but he can still fight and avoid lethal attacks until his morale (or luck, or willpower, or magical defenses, or divine protection) runs out.

With this, we (that is my party members, my fellow RPG players and me as a DM) have a slight "problem": It is too MMO-ish for us; way to simple-minded for our tastes and I think most of the 25yo+ players (I'm 29) with some RPG experience on their backs would think the same.


I'm trying to reproduce a feeling that the road to victory during fights is to crush the opponent's morale and then his bones will follow. Of course there are cases where bones are pulverized before one can even realise what has happened, but as I said these are some first thoughts on the subject and I would really love to expand on them, with some help ofcourse.

 

[Mentat55]

With this, we (that is my party members, my fellow RPG players and me as a DM) have a slight "problem": It is too MMO-ish for us; way to simple-minded for our tastes and I think most of the 25yo+ players (I'm 29) with some RPG experience on their backs would think the same.

I am a 32 old gamer with 21 years of D&D experience, and the way hit points work and healing work in D&D (over multiple editions) does not make me blink one bit.

Why does a 10th level fighter have so many more HP than a 1st level fighter, or for that matter, more than an ogre? It can't be because of physical differences -- yes he is tougher, but multiple times tougher, i.e., can be stabbed X times with a rapier instead of just once? So I assume luck, skill, morale, and a little divine intervention all get rolled into "hit points".

That being said, what you describe is basically the Wound Point/Vitality Point (WP/VP) system that has been described, among other places, in 3E Unearthed Arcana: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm

P.S. I've always wanted to go to Crete and visit Samaria Gorge.

 

[urbanfractal]

Yes indeed, that was a great idea back in the day. But I haven't seen anything relevant for the 4th. Plus vitality points is nice but it doesn't quite work for me when one hits and another is rejuvinated (for vitality). I mean her bruises don't heal or her sprinkled ankle doesn't work again. She doesn't restore her electrolytes, carbohydrates etc just because the Cleric glared intensivly at a minion!

So why not refrase to Morale/Wound Points? That's what I am getting to; and how this could work in the 4E D&D without being silly and just fluff.

PS. Samaria Gorge is in Chania Municipality, where my hometown (Chania) is. Its awesome although a bit "civilised" nowadays in order to accept larger numbers of visitors. Still it retains a lot of its wild characteristics and is a must-see. So, see to it!

 

[FireLance]

With this, we (that is my party members, my fellow RPG players and me as a DM) have a slight "problem": It is too MMO-ish for us; way to simple-minded for our tastes and I think most of the 25yo+ players (I'm 29) with some RPG experience on their backs would think the same.

Well, I think it's a matter of taste, not age or RPG experience. Just for the record, I'm 39 years old and have been gaming for 26 years, starting with Basic D&D, and progressing on through 1E AD&D, 2E, 3E, 3.5E and (now) 4E.

 

[the Jester]

With this, we (that is my party members, my fellow RPG players and me as a DM) have a slight "problem": It is too MMO-ish for us; way to simple-minded for our tastes and I think most of the 25yo+ players (I'm 29) with some RPG experience on their backs would think the same.

Hit points have always, always, always included the nonphysical. Like so many things that are "too MMO-ish", it came straight from D&D to begin with.

From the 1st Ed Dungeon Master's Guide, pg. 82:

Hit Points: It is quite unreasonable to assum ethat as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical dmaage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Becuase these reflect both the physical ability of the character to withstand damage- as indicated by constitution bonuses- and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-and-death situations, the "sixth sense" which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection....

 

[Stalker0]

This sounds similar to the VP/WP system that the old star wars game used to use if I'm not mistaken. Might be some good ideas there.

 

[BrokeAndDrive]

Realism in my D&D?? Noooo, my catgirls!

 

[knightofround]

HP has always been something I've wrestled with. After I played the Star Wars RPG I took vitality & wound points to heart, and loved them so much I expanded the idea with various bonuses and penalties depending upon where you at.

In the long run though, I had to give it up. I needed to reduce the book-keeping. Afterwards I portrayed HP as a combination of two factors:

1. Luck/divine favor/pure heroicness. This represents the why higher level characters can take more damage than lower level characters. In this interpretation, when an Orc "Hit" PC A for 8 damage, Player A was not truly hit by the weapon. Instead, out of sheer luck Player A dodged away, or the Orc stumbled, or something of that nature. Instead, the PC's HP (aka "luck score") dropped by 8. When that luck reached zero the PC's "luck runs out" and a hit becomes *truly* a KO.

2. Damage mitigation. This would be an example of turning in an attack that would normally decapitate a person into a simple bruise or fracture. This explains why some characters (ie defenders) have more HP than others at the same level.

When 4E brought the "bloodied" condition into play, it made the system I was using even more interesting. Now, whenever someone hits "bloodied" they actually take a substantial wound that seriously affects the player's capacity to fight. (decrease or increase, depending upon the monster/PC feats and attributes). When they hit 0 HP, that is the second blow which results in a mortal wound (which will often kill the character if it isn't treated soon) and also makes the character helpless. True death is reached when the character hits negative healing surge value, which allows some leeway for heroic characters who take 3-10 stab wounds to truly kill them.

Another thing I like about this system is that it makes healers more than simple medics that repair physical damage. It also show hows morale, encouragement, and leadership can increase the survival of individuals.

If you want a statistical representation of becoming wounded, its much simpler to add a cummulative -X penalty to all rolls at each section the character reaches. You could do simple "bloodied condition" means you get -2 to everything. Or you could break it up into healing surge values, so 3/4 = -1 to everything, 1/2 = -2 to everything, 1/4 = -3 or -4 to everything. Those kinds of "across the board" modifiers are easier to track than multiple HP pools.