Hobgoblin Skills

[Pinotage]

How about the hobgoblin?

Let's consider the Goblin as a counterexample.

Hide +5, Listen +2, Move Silently +5, Ride +4, Spot +2. It has the Alertness feat, and gains +4 to Move Silently and Ride as a racial bonus.

Hide +5 (+1 Dex, -1 ACP, +4 Small) - 1 rank
Listen (-1 Wis, +2 Alertness) - 1 rank
Move Silently (+1 Dex, -1 ACP, +4 Racial) - 1 rank
Ride (+4 Racial, +1 Dex) - They buggered this up - it should be listed as +5.
Spot (-1 Wis, +2 Alertness) - 1 rank

4 ranks. 8 skill points. All cross-class?

Pinotage

 

[Infiniti2000]

Let's consider the Goblin as a counterexample.

Not a good choice. Not only because of the Ride mistake (I agree with you), but because of this additional conflict: "Goblin cavalry (mounted on worgs) usually select the Mounted Combat feat in place of the Alertness feat, which reduces their Spot and Listen check modifiers from +3 to +1." It's not even +3 to begin with. But, that would explain the error. 1 Rank in Hide (cross-class skill), 1 rank Move Silently (class skill), no ranks in Hide, and 2 ranks each in Spot and Listen (assuming +3, cross-class skill). So that requires 2 (hide) + 1 (move) + 8 (spot/listen) = 11. Oops, something else must be wrong. Well, let's make them based on the warrior, so we get 2 (hide) + 2 (move) + 8 (spot/listen) = 12, still too much.

Anyway you shake it, there's an error and it's not right to make a case on an error.

 

[Garnfellow]

Hide is a class skill for Hobgoblins. From the glossary with my emphasis, "With regards to creatures in general, a class skill is any skill in which a monster has acquired at least one rank or in which the creature has a racial bonus." So, the entry is correct.

Interesting, very interesting. I don't think I had ever noticed that little glossary piece about racial bonuses -- thanks for that!

However, I don't think that your quoted passage means that these skills are always class skills. If so, I'm pretty sure the entry would specifically say something like "these skills are always treated as class skills." I think it's intended only to affect skill points gained from racial levels, and hobgoblins have no racial levels. And, as pinotage points out, I cannot think of a single example of a WotC NPC treating skills with racial bonuses as always class skills.

In any case, hobgoblins do not have a racial bonus to Hide -- it's Move Silently. So even if your interpretation were right, Hide should still be a cross-class skill.

 

[Pinotage]

Not a good choice. Not only because of the Ride mistake (I agree with you), but because of this additional conflict: "Goblin cavalry (mounted on worgs) usually select the Mounted Combat feat in place of the Alertness feat, which reduces their Spot and Listen check modifiers from +3 to +1." It's not even +3 to begin with. But, that would explain the error. 1 Rank in Hide (cross-class skill), 1 rank Move Silently (class skill), no ranks in Hide, and 2 ranks each in Spot and Listen (assuming +3, cross-class skill). So that requires 2 (hide) + 1 (move) + 8 (spot/listen) = 11. Oops, something else must be wrong. Well, let's make them based on the warrior, so we get 2 (hide) + 2 (move) + 8 (spot/listen) = 12, still too much.

Anyway you shake it, there's an error and it's not right to make a case on an error.

Yes, didn't see that. But the orc is the other way around. Listen +1, Spot +1. Alertness and allowed 4 skill points as a 1st level Warrior. There they are cross-class skills.

Listen (+2 Alertness, -2 Wisdom) - 1 rank
Spot (+2 Alertness, -2 Wisdom) - 1 rank

Cross-class skills. The goblin makes sense if you assume the text is incorrect, but the given that it has precedence the whole thing is buggered up. In any event, I think you'll find more examples along the lines of the orc than the hobgoblin or goblin.

Pinotage

 

[Thaniel]

Even so, I think if I ever get around to DMing I'm going to make skills in which you have a racial bonus always class skills. I can't see how this would ever be overpowering. Halflings are always supposed to be acrobatic, whether or not they train as a rogue or a sorcerer. Makes some sense they should treat those bonus'ed skills as class skills regardless. I like it.

 

[Infiniti2000]

In any event, I think you'll find more examples along the lines of the orc than the hobgoblin or goblin.

And, like I said, I'd concede to the majority rule. There's a good probability that different people wrote the stat entries (or edited them) and had a different take on it. If it matters, I grant them as class skills for all racial bonuses, regardless of character class taken. I still don't think it's a houserule based on the glossary entry, but I'll concede it is and do so happily. There's not enough class skills IMO.