Hold Person - Two Saving throws per round?!

[KingOfChaos]

The Hold Person/Monster spell is useless now. I never use it anymore.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

If certain tactics are so brutally efficient by the game rules they inspire "Gentlemen’s agreements" not to use them, I think there is a problem with the ruleset...

Exactly.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

yes, but what I was saying, was that WOTC still wants the spell to be a death sentence.

And how do you know that? Were you sitting at the R&D table when hold person was statted out? Do you have some insider information? You always seem to make such statements of "fact" when it's really just your opinion.

I think the problem is simply that hold person doesn't mesh well with 3E rules. Future editions should just make the spell end immediately if someone attempts to make a hostile action against the target. Heck, future editions should just get rid of the "save or die/incapacitated" mechanic altogether and come up with an alternative that doesn't take away a player's means of having fun.

 

[Dracorat]

This spell doesn't really qualify however. As nice as it is on paper, in combat it degrades for multiple reasons.

First is the fact that a CDG is a full round action meaning the CDG person has to be next to the person to begin with or spend an additional round getting there.

Next is the fact that performing a CDG provokes an AoO from everyone around the performer.

Also coupled in is that a CDG is less deadly to low will-save characters in general (like fighters) because that usually means FORT is a higher save for them.

And tactically, anyone moving in to perform a CDG next round can usually be prevented in one method or another. (Grapple helps here)

 

[Jack Simth]

This came up in the weekends game:-

1st round of combat-
Evil Cleric wins initiative and casts Hold Person on fighter. Fighter fails saving throw and his held.
On the fighter's turn (note: in the same round) does he get to make another saving throw to break the hold person?

It's been a while since we played so we looked up the spell. The wording would suggest that the victim of the hold person would get another saving throw in the same round that they failed the saving throw when the spell was cast. Is this correct?

Also is this the only spell that possibly allows two saves per round ?(one when cast and then a second on the target's turn).
Thanks
Reebo

He gets another saving throw the same round it was cast... but as it's a full-round action to get additional saving throws, he's out a turn for each of the saving throws he failed. He fails the initial, he has, at a minimum, lost his next full-round action. If he succeeds the second, he still can't do much until his next turn (although he's no longer paralized, and can do things like take AoO's, or avoid CdG's).

 

[Thurbane]

True the victim is not helpless. But being unable to act and prone while folks beat on you is bad news. Tasha's hideous laughter is now far far better on its own at removing foes from combat than hold person is. And even with DC-4, targeting non humaniods is still worth a shot. [this assumes a human caster].

And the good news is Bards get it as a 1st level spell.

This spell doesn't really qualify however. As nice as it is on paper, in combat it degrades for multiple reasons.

First is the fact that a CDG is a full round action meaning the CDG person has to be next to the person to begin with or spend an additional round getting there.

Next is the fact that performing a CDG provokes an AoO from everyone around the performer.

Also coupled in is that a CDG is less deadly to low will-save characters in general (like fighters) because that usually means FORT is a higher save for them.

And tactically, anyone moving in to perform a CDG next round can usually be prevented in one method or another. (Grapple helps here)

Isn't there a feat in CW that lets you CDG as a standard action with provoking AoO? Be a nice combo for the party Fighter and Cleric to keep up their sleeves.

 

[Thurbane]

Heck, future editions should just get rid of the "save or die/incapacitated" mechanic altogether and come up with an alternative that doesn't take away a player's means of having fun.

Oh yes, heaven forbid a player fall to such underhanded tactics, I mean it's not like they exploit these exact kind of things against monsters and NPCs themselves...oh wait...

 

[frankthedm]

Isn't there a feat in CW that lets you CDG as a standard action with provoking AoO? Be a nice combo for the party Fighter and Cleric to keep up their sleeves.

Kind of a feat waste. A judicious Delay on the fighter's part will place him into CDG position.

 

[starwed]

Kind of a feat waste. A judicious Delay on the fighter's part will place him into CDG position.

Last time my cleric tried this combo in a game, the delaying fighter got hit by an enemy cleric also casting hold person who had delayed his own action. (Having to communicate to the fighter to delay had tipped the cleric off that something was up.) ^_^ Since everyone else was out of action, they just glared at each other for a round.

A readied action would have prevented the situation, and would have been possible with the feat.

Still probably a waste for a PC, but it would be funny to have a follower or two with this feat with invisibility cast on them.

 

[Plane Sailing]

And how do you know that? Were you sitting at the R&D table when hold person was statted out? Do you have some insider information? You always seem to make such statements of "fact" when it's really just your opinion.

moderators note: calm down please. Everyone is posting their opinion, it is the subtext to nearly every post made on ENworld unless someone is explicitly quoting some source or another.

Thanks