Holy Symbols: are they God-specific? Can they be altered?

[Setaroth]

The title says it. My party came across a +1 "Symbol of Battle" that was listed a paragraph above as a holy symbol of a particular deity (some of you can guess the source of this treasure, no spoilers intended). My question is simply can it be altered to represent the party cleric's own deity? It seems unfair that not only do clerics/pallies have to settle for 1/8 of class-specific treasure, but then that share is subdivided into 10 or so main deities and a bunch of minor ones.

I tried to dive into the basic PHB and DMG texts, but found nothing that would help. I can home brew a ritual to alter the symbol, but was hoping there was already something in place first. I figure I'd list the cost as 1/3 the symbol's value. It's a great magic item for a low level cleric, so I'm sure the party would be happy to part with the gold, but if they don't need to do so per the RAW text, I'm okay with that.

Thanks in advance!

 

[keterys]

I told my group it took a 5 minute reconsecrate (ie, short rest) to cleanse and claim a holy symbol.

 

[Lurker37]

The title says it. My party came across a +1 "Symbol of Battle" that was listed a paragraph above as a holy symbol of a particular deity (some of you can guess the source of this treasure, no spoilers intended). My question is simply can it be altered to represent the party cleric's own deity? It seems unfair that not only do clerics/pallies have to settle for 1/8 of class-specific treasure, but then that share is subdivided into 10 or so main deities and a bunch of minor ones.

I tried to dive into the basic PHB and DMG texts, but found nothing that would help. I can home brew a ritual to alter the symbol, but was hoping there was already something in place first. I figure I'd list the cost as 1/3 the symbol's value. It's a great magic item for a low level cleric, so I'm sure the party would be happy to part with the gold, but if they don't need to do so per the RAW text, I'm okay with that.

Thanks in advance!

You're correct that the RAW do not cover this. It's a fairly safe bet, however, that it was intended that found holy symbols could be used by the PCs without any additional gold outlay, because of how treasure packets work in 4E.

Most common solution I've seen is to treat it like resizing magical armour (which is really what you're doing in game mechanics terms - making a cosmetic alteration to allow the PC to use the item.) So either use the Enchant Item ritual (like resizing armour this use has no component cost) or else have the PC rededicate the symbol in an hour-long prayer.

Alternatively, you could have the symbol respond to the faith of whoever holds it, so that it slowly changes over the course of an hour when held/worn by a character with the divine power source.

Failing that, you could perhaps rule that the local temple could rededicate holy symbols. You could explain them not charging anything for this service simply by the fact that the divine PC is a member in good standing of the temple, and this strengthens the temple's deity while weakening another. (And let's face it, if the PCs found a symbol of a specific deity, chances are they took it off the body of an enemy, and it is thus a deity worshipped by their enemies. Most temples would regard weakening the power of the agents of an opposing deity as a win.)

 

[djdaidouji]

RAW, I can't find any either. I'm thinking rather then a ritual to change the deity, it's just a class feature for clerics and paladins. That, or magical holy symbols by nature morph into the deity of the wielder when they first use it as an implement. Maybe they can wield any deity's symbol as an implement, regardless of their own beliefs. Or maybe all clerics and paladins use a universal symbol of the entire pantheon.
These are things to think about, as if a cleric can't use a symbol of someone else's deity, then a cleric without a deity (based on good or evil or something) wouldn't be able to use anything.

 

[Setaroth]

Excellent ideas! Many thanks!

 

[James McMurray]

Heh, my cleric of the Raven Queen just found the same thing last week.

We searched around and couldn't find anywhere that said the form of a holy symbol matters, so I'll be using it. The GM rule it was ok as long as the deities aren't diametrically opposed, and that it could be altered using the Enchant Item ritual (similar to resizing armor).

Personally I assume that they put it there because the pregen is a cleric of Bahamut. The DMG says to provide treasure that the party can use, and that symbol is exactly what that pregen would like to have. If I ever run it, I'll change it to be whatever the cleric or paladin's deity is so there's no concern over whether it's usable or not.

 

[MacMathan]

The party I am DM-ing also found this item last week. I ruled that once a Cleric examines and identifies it as magical it taps into his divine energy and changes shape to be appropriate to his deity.

Otherwise it feels like Clerics will be left behind implement-wise as they would have a low chance of finding a match.

 

[Dalzig]

My cleric worships pretty much all the non-evil gods, so I don't really have a problem with this stuff, unless they loot some off enemy clerics.

 

[fba827]

One could say that:
Holy Symbols are no longer the form that we are used to. In previous editions they were medaliions or icons or pictorials on shields that had the symbol of the god in question, etc. But in this edition there are subtle changes to divine power source (you're no longer getting it from the gods, etc, heck, once you're ordianed you could technically do whatever you want until your society/community catches up with you -- exagerating a little, but you get what I mean if you read that part in the PHB). So perhaps Divine Implements (Holy Symbols) are really more akin to Arcane Implements (Wand, Staff, Orb, Rod) -- they are ANY form, they just have enough energy that they serve as a focus for _that power source_
So the +1 symbol of battle in question is just a palm-sized copper circle and such ....


Having said that, my brain is (personally) too afixed to Holy Symbols being diety-specific.... so I am probably going to implement one of the house-rules that has already been mentioned in this thread (a minor ritual etc). But I wanted to at least present the above in case anyone's brain is able to seperate the concept then my own brain is able to do since, taking the above concept, would make things simpler for the clerics and paladins.

 

[Johnnii]

If you want a little realism without making it to gimped for the divine characters, you could say that a holy symbol represent a pantheon, as described in the DMG p. 156.

So for example, a holy symbol of the Celestial Mountain works with Bahamut, Moradin and Kord. A cleric of the Raven Queen could not utilise this symbol, but she could instead use a holy symbol of The Fates, as would clerics of Ioun and Avandra