D&D General + Homebrew Brainstorm to bring back prepared Vancian Casting +

[Distracted DM]

Plus+ thread, because I'd rather not have to justify/defend why I'd want to bring back old prepared Vancian casting.

Rather than remove the current spell slot method, I'd rather create an incentivized option for the old prepared spell-Vancian casting. Incentivizing likely means enhanced power, but at the cost of the 5e method's flexibility.

A few ideas on how to go about this:

1. More spell slots per day: OK this is my least favorite way of doing it, it's how I saw some other folk homebrew it.
2. Level-based Auto-upcast spells: The idea of this one appeals the most. Spells used to upcast, so why not bring that back? The issue with this one, I think, is whether or not it'd be too overpowered for all spells to be upcast to, say, your max spell level.
3. Roll-to-Cast: Finally, what if memorizing spells this way made them roll-to-cast, in the vein of Shadowdark and DCC? Two ways that this could work, A. Roll-to-Cast including the failure potential, but now we're adding a new detriment and this system is supposed to be incentivized to be used, or B. you always successfully cast, but you're rolling to see if you keep the spell. So you could potentially get multiple casts out of one prepared spell, but preparing it multiple times would mean greater guarantee on being able to use that spell consistently.

Thoughts?

 

[Horwath]

Plus+ thread, because I'd rather not have to justify/defend why I'd want to bring back old prepared Vancian casting.

Rather than remove the current spell slot method, I'd rather create an incentivized option for the old prepared spell-Vancian casting. Incentivizing likely means enhanced power, but at the cost of the 5e method's flexibility.

A few ideas on how to go about this:

I generally hate the idea, even spell slots are kind of dumb in the end.
Spell point is the best variant to me.

but, since this is a +thread...

1. More spell slots per day: OK this is my least favorite way of doing it, it's how I saw some other folk homebrew it.

more spell slots would be required for loss of flexibility, there is a good chance that many of spell slots will not be used during any given day.

2. Level-based Auto-upcast spells: The idea of this one appeals the most. Spells used to upcast, so why not bring that back? The issue with this one, I think, is whether or not it'd be too overpowered for all spells to be upcast to, say, your max spell level.

this will bring back double scaling of casters vs martials.
we have auto scaling cantrips, that is enough.

3. Roll-to-Cast: Finally, what if memorizing spells this way made them roll-to-cast, in the vein of Shadowdark and DCC? Two ways that this could work, A. Roll-to-Cast including the failure potential, but now we're adding a new detriment and this system is supposed to be incentivized to be used, or B. you always successfully cast, but you're rolling to see if you keep the spell. So you could potentially get multiple casts out of one prepared spell, but preparing it multiple times would mean greater guarantee on being able to use that spell consistently.

Thoughts?

This would lead again to min-maxing the "spell roll" in every possible way.


maybe this idea would give more weight to subclass spells, if they could be casted instead of prepared spells.
But, again it would require greater rebalancing of those bonus spells.


in any way, it would lead to more casters looking the same as people would not like to prepare niche spells, but spell that are generally more useful in more situations.
And it would lead to even more 5MWD, because now it would not be when wizards is out of slots, but when wizards it out of preferred slots.

 

[Stormonu]

I'd probably go route #1 - losing flexibility for the option to have more spells on hand that will be useful at any given time.

Overall, though I think I'd go with limited prep - maybe one or two flexible slots. The rest are prepared, but you don't need to specifically select multiples. You could cast a prepared spell multiple times by sacrificing other slots.

For example: Wizard 5 with spell slots of 1st: 4, 2nd: 3, 3rd: 2.

1st: Detect Magic, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Missile, Shield
2nd: Detect Thoughts, Invisibility, Scorching Ray
3rd: Fireball, Fly

EXAMPLE 1: Early in the day, the Wizard's group runs afoul of a band of goblins. Expecting more trouble later in the day in the confines of a dungeon, the Wizard decides to sacrifice their 3rd level Fly spell to cast Fireball. Now, for the rest of the day the Wizard couldn't use Fly if they needed it, but could still cast another Fireball.

EXAMPLE 2: After resting and on another trip, the Ranger and the Rogue decide they need to scout ahead. The Wizard decides to sacrifice a 3rd level slot to upcast Invisibility to conceal the two. Once again, the Wizard sacks the Fly slot to accommodate the upcast. For the rest of the adventure, the Wizard could still cast Fireball, but Fly is no longer accessible until the Wizard rests and rememorizes the spell.

 

[sevenbastard]

you always successfully cast, but you're rolling to see if you keep the spell. So you could potentially get multiple casts out of one prepared spell, but preparing it multiple times would mean greater guarantee on being able to use that spell consistently.

I use the above in my OSR homebrew rules.

 

[Laurefindel]

Plus+ thread, because I'd rather not have to justify/defend why I'd want to bring back old prepared Vancian casting.

Rather than remove the current spell slot method, I'd rather create an incentivized option for the old prepared spell-Vancian casting. Incentivizing likely means enhanced power, but at the cost of the 5e method's flexibility.

A few ideas on how to go about this:

1. More spell slots per day: OK this is my least favorite way of doing it, it's how I saw some other folk homebrew it.
2. Level-based Auto-upcast spells: The idea of this one appeals the most. Spells used to upcast, so why not bring that back? The issue with this one, I think, is whether or not it'd be too overpowered for all spells to be upcast to, say, your max spell level.
3. Roll-to-Cast: Finally, what if memorizing spells this way made them roll-to-cast, in the vein of Shadowdark and DCC? Two ways that this could work, A. Roll-to-Cast including the failure potential, but now we're adding a new detriment and this system is supposed to be incentivized to be used, or B. you always successfully cast, but you're rolling to see if you keep the spell. So you could potentially get multiple casts out of one prepared spell, but preparing it multiple times would mean greater guarantee on being able to use that spell consistently.

Thoughts?

I actually like prepared Vancian. As a matter of fact, it's not Vancian if it's not prepared, it's just clunky spell slots...

Without justifying/defending that you want prepared Vancian, I'm curious why you want to bring it back, and that may answer your own questioning. I like the old D&D feel of it and the concept that a wizard prepares spells like a gunslinger loads bullets in its gun, and would therefore use option 2) to go with it.

Also the inevitable question: what do your players think of all this?

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Why not a hybrid way. Use the 5e method but allow a caster to “lock” spells into slots. Those specific slots can’t be changed but, instead, come with some kind of boon. Automatically upcast one level, for example.

Which is nice because you can lock Haste into a higher slot and it automatically gets boosted an additional spell level.

Or lose a material component requirement. Whatever.

So the caster can choose to lock in as many spells as they want but keep a few “open” for flexibility sake.

 

[Distracted DM]

I actually like prepared Vancian. As a matter of fact, it's not Vancian if it's not prepared, it's just clunky spell slots...

Without justifying/defending that you want prepared Vancian, I'm curious why you want to bring it back, and that may answer your own questioning. I like the old D&D feel of it and the concept that a wizard prepares spells like a gunslinger loads bullets in its gun, and would therefore use option 2) to go with it.

Also the inevitable question: what do your players think of all this?

It adds an extra layer of decision-making for the player. Each new rest is an opportunity to think about what would be most useful the next day, it might even encourage more scouting/information-gathering, whether it's via physical or magical means.

Also, I noticed a sentiment from some theorycrafters and designers, including Mike Mearls, that upcasting damage/heal spells in 5e is almost never worth it.. Especially because of cantrips. I think that's one reason that I'm leaning towards option #2, that it means lower-level damage spells could still be useful if they're being auto-upcast to the PC's spell level, or maybe the level below that, or using some other scale like adding 1/2 PB or somesuch.

Regarding my players? Some would jump at the chance to exploit the benefit and work within the constraints of the system, others won't bother 'cuz of the constraints.