[Homebrew] In a godless campaign what do you with clerics?

[Celebrim]

To nitpick, he's right on that one. Faith specifically requires a lack of proof.

First of all, to nitpick that is not what he said. You've reworded what he said into something ever so slightly more defensible.

And secondly, you are still wrong. Briefly, faith is acting on a belief based on the realization that although true certainty may never be possible, the preponderance of the evidence leads you to believe this. But the whole part of that belief is also faith regardless of where it came from. It's like that part early on in the meditations of Descartes where he admits that he cannot actually know with certainty whether all of his senses are deceiving him, but that he will proceed as if they are not, because only that possibility means that any argument can mean anything. That is an act of faith. Faith is that part of science for example, where you show that your results are 95% likely to not be chance, and so you believe in them despite the possibility that in fact they might be chance or that you are self-deceived or that you have made an error in your results. And if you know anything about science, you know that that gap always exists - you never hit 100% - but even if you did hit 100% and have proof and complete surety it would still be Faith.

And thirdly, I really can't debate this here.

 

[Yunru]

First of all, to nitpick that is not what he said. You've reworded what he said into something ever so slightly more defensible.

True I added "for" to his "against", but otherwise it remains unchanged.

And secondly, you are still wrong. Briefly, faith is acting on a belief based on the realization that although true certainty may never be possible, the preponderance of the evidence leads you to believe this. But the whole part of that belief is also faith regardless of where it came from. It's like that part early on in the meditations of Descartes where he admits that he cannot actually know with certainty whether all of his senses are deceiving him, but that he will proceed as if they are not, because only that possibility means that any argument can mean anything. That is an act of faith. Faith is that part of science for example, where you show that your results are 95% likely to not be chance, and so you believe in them despite the possibility that in fact they might be chance or that you are self-deceived or that you have made an error in your results. And if you know anything about science, you know that that gap always exists - you never hit 100% - but even if you did hit 100% and have proof and complete surety it would still be Faith.

Briefly my ass
But regardless, both the dictionary and the local monastery agree with me:
Faith, noun.
2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

That sounds like Paladins to me.

 

[Celebrim]

True I added "for" to his "against", but otherwise it remains unchanged.

Neither the word "for" nor "against" actually appears in what I responding to when you quoted me.

And I'm just going to leave it at that before I get in trouble with the law around here.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Neither the word "for" nor "against" actually appears in what I responding to when you quoted me.

And I'm just going to leave it at that before I get in trouble with the law around here.

I would just like to point out that I was paraphrasing Lewis Carol, AKA the reverend Charles Dodgeson, a Christian cleric.

I could also quote Douglas Adams though:

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.”

 

[77IM]

 

[77IM]

Try this variant:

1. Clerics get spell books, and get spells at the same rate as the wizard (6 at first level, +2 each additional level).
2. They can only prepare spells in their books, not any spell on the class list.
3. Domain spells are automatically in the book, and always prepared.
4. Call cleric a "white mage" and the wizard a "black mage."

This sounds like a huge nerf to clerics but it's actually not -- in practice, most clerics settle on a few spells at each level, and don't vary them very often afterwards. BUT it would really drive home the idea that clerical magic is similar to wizardly magic, just different.

 

[Yunru]

Run a campaign before it. Have the players kill all the gods.

They'll remember the gods are dead then.

 

[WaterRabbit]

Wrong again. Back in ancient times most people believed in God as an all seeing cosmic policeman who would punish them if they did wrong, which would include breaking oaths. Kings where often portrayed as divinely appointed, so to disobey the king would invite punishment by the cosmic policeman.

Before you claim someone is wrong, you should at least be right. Oaths existed before monotheism and in most polytheistic cultures, they did not see their gods as all seeing cosmic policemen. This is just flat out wrong.

 

[sunrisekid]

I suspect the OP stopped paying attention to this thread a long time ago.

Haha, true, but only because I'm busy with work and didn't have time to check in!

But for myself a world without gods could go several ways.

1. People still believe in gods, there are still clerics and all other divine spell casters. Spells aren't powered by gods, they're powered by [insert fluff here].

This is the direction I'm going. It's easier for me, lets the players imagine whatever, satisfies the *ahem* curiously particular narrative demands I have.

No special backstory as to why, just a story-telling preference inspired by older S&S stories. Maybe also boredom; I've been reading about the FR setting since being a kid in the 80s and the idea of an expanded pantheon had long become bland. However, that's qualified. I still like the idea of there being all sorts of weird religions and cults, some of whom might be named after said pantheon. But in a much more looser and weirder way, as needed.

 

[MNblockhead]

beliefs and convictions. Faith is a form of conviction, but not the sole source of beliefs.

This. It also fits in with the common trope of believing in something hard enough to make it happen. Sorcerors create magic effects as a natural talent. Their struggle is to control the magic welling up from within them. Arcane magic users create magic after laborious study and practice, their struggle is mastering what they have learned. Clerics create magic effects through the power of belief. Their struggle is...what? In many D&D campaigns the god are too approachable and dependable. I like the idea wher there are reasons for doubt. That makes belief a struggle. That struggle is rewarded by miracles. In the real-world we have a rich well of examples from the world's cultures to model this understanding of clerical magic on.

If I could make the time, I've always wanted to make alterations for clerics so that their spells could be the most powerful in the game but that it isn't guaranteed that they would occur. Some mechanic the required upholding the gods commandments and being a model of the religion's ideas. Real sacrifices that have to be made and a good reason for using this power beyond personal gain and glory (as for "gods" of "personal gain and glory" -- no, sorry -- those are warlocks, pacts with evil, neutral, or mysterious powers, which would not be looked on well by clerics and most of society).

D&D gives us this great toolbox, but too many games, especially in organized play, are this gonzo kitchen sync world that feels like a poorly written anime cartoon. For your homebrew, I think some basic limitations and selections can create a much more flavorful campaign. Sometimes our creativity grows when presented with limitations.