Homosexuality in the Forgotten Realms

[Eytan Bernstein]

Sorry to pull the thread back on topic, but I managed to sneak a little gayness into the Forgotten Realms in "Faiths and Pantheons." During Llira's mortal exile during the time of troubles, she took a female lover.

Not like anyone bothered to actually read that book (it's "just a rehash" of the 2e god books, I understand), but it's in there if you know where to look.

--Erik

Actually, I did Erik. I think was quoting that very section of Lliira's history in another thread similar to this yesterday. I also used the thread in one of the 4th Magic Item Compendium preview article - the one about using the book in the Realms. So I'm getting some good mileage out of it.

--Eytan

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Well, I never commented on the hotness of Llira's lover, so I think I'm in the clear.

I think hotness on a goddess level will render the other participant irrelevant, so the noose stays around your neck!

 

[Kae'Yoss]

i felt that the spoilery bit in this post was heading in that direction.
but i do think there's a difference between heading in that direction, and arriving there.

I can see that. I'm sorry. I didn't want to set those two concepts on the same level.

If it makes you feel better, that same priest is also molesting a young woman in the book, the book did not equal the two concepts, and neither do I.

 

[IanB]

Well, I never commented on the hotness of Llira's lover, so I think I'm in the clear.

I put a couple of queer beggar lords in Greyhawk in a Dragon article, though. Do they count?

--Erik

They count, and so do Artux and Adimarchus (sad story, that.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The number of examples in gamer books of a Rosie O'Donnell figure having a physical relationship with absolutely anything even as comedy are so utterly infrequent as to be neigh non-existent.

A true "Brokeback Mountain" moment where the characters are portrayed sympathetically, maturely with the deed not occurring as a vague reference would not only be shocking, it would bring down the already much-abused WotC FR forums.

It'd be the most interesting game novel ever, though.

 

[s.j. bagley]

I can see that. I'm sorry. I didn't want to set those two concepts on the same level.

If it makes you feel better, that same priest is also molesting a young woman in the book, the book did not equal the two concepts, and neither do I.

thanks very much for the clarification, and the apology.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

As to two attractive females "not counting", I oppose and counter with: "Why not?"

I think it depends on the context. If it's done obviously for pandering purposes, perhaps. But if it is in there because it is ACCEPTABLE (due to an interest set in the readership) but serves the author's purpose in portraying non-mainstream relationships in a positive light then I believe it is, instead, subversive.

--fje

 

[dragonlordofpoondari]

Having done both biology and psychology, citing this so called "divide" is pretty much a red flag for me. Numbers are numbers, good experimental design is good experimental design, and the "hard" science folks can make some really dumb design mistakes when they try to study issues that are all about asking questions.

Big undulating flag.

In fact, social scientists are uniquely equipped to conduct these interview-based studies since that is precisely the kind of research in which they specialize. It is what they go to graduate school to train for, and it is part and parcel of the social scientist's career.

As far as biologists go, population ecologists & bioinformatitions tend to be good at statistics, but I've encountered an alarming number of PhDs at the upper echelon of biology (we're talking Howard Hughes Labs, Academy members' labs, top graduate/medical schools etc) who can barely calculate standard deviation. Some of them can't even calculate molarity to mix up their own solutions!!! That was what, freshman chemistry? Sad but true.

[RANT FOLLOWS]

What's more, I won't go into the amount of faked data I've seen published in top journals because the stakes are so damned high in biology (I'm talking about money, here, folks). I wish this was hyperbole, but the funding system in science today almost encourages faking data if your repuation and lab budget and survival depend on it. Funding is based on big ideas, big phenotypes, and following through to make the big discoveries ... instead of negative results which are a normal and healthy part of practicing good science.

Even if a paper comes out of a Nobel laureate's lab, you can't trust it until the experiments are repeated by an impartial 3rd party. Unfortunately, double-checking the experiments of others doesn't garner kleos (honor) like doing your own cutting edge research. It is just not sexy research and therefore not a huge priority. So faked data often won't get caught for years. Ug.

At least the scientific method is noble in intent ...

[/RANT]

My point here? Don't believe everything you read ... even if it's coming from a very reputable source. Politics are everywhere.

 

[IanB]

As to two attractive females "not counting", I oppose and counter with: "Why not?"

I think it depends on the context. If it's done obviously for pandering purposes, perhaps. But if it is in there because it is ACCEPTABLE (due to an interest set in the readership) but serves the author's purpose in portraying non-mainstream relationships in a positive light then I believe it is, instead, subversive.

--fje

My "why not" would be simple. Whether or not the author is setting out to portray a non-mainstream relationship in a positive light or not, the situation ("two hot chicks omg") is tied up with a lot of very mainstream straight male attitudes towards women (ref: all porn ever), and so any portrayal will tend to get caught up more on that sort of thing than any kind of sensitive portrayal of homosexuality. An author who chooses that particular cliche as his or her 'positive example of gayness' is set up for failure, because very rarely is there space in gaming material to provide much more than a short description of a relationship - so it will always *seem*, because of the cultural baggage associated with "two hot chicks omg", that that was all the author was going for, regardless of intent.

 

[HeapThaumaturgist]

But yet it is getting brought into a larger discussion of nontraditional relationship structures vis a vis published material for an RPG game, involving a handful of fans discussing the subject beyond the realms of "omg".

--fje