D&D 5E Horde of the Dragon Queen (what am I doing wrong)spoilers

[Parmandur]

Ok, fair enough. One of my players had it and I don't have lots of time to do a homebrew campaign, so I ran it. Are you suggesting I ran things properly?

I've been playing 5e for three or so years and have been finding it to be a less deadly compared to previous editions. It could be that I've had a couple 'story driven' DMs who didn't push combat very hard. Even when I DM one-shots, I've found I've been able to err on the side of more deadly to challenge PCs.

I guess I was just 'trusting' the module for balance but a lot doesn't feel 'right' as I was prepping stuff. I know there's a thread to help 'improve' the module but what's the point of having a module if you have to read a 10-page thread? For me, I run modules to save time and reading piles of threads is just more prep that I don't have time for.

What modules are good? I'm willing to buy a different one. I was thinking of running Storm King's Thunder.

I told them to make new characters. They're all new to D&D so, on the bright side, they've learned the value of retreating and caution.

It's not that HotDQ is horrible, but...it was the first big adventure for 5E, and the DMG encounter guidelines were still in flux when it was published. They actually turned the dial down pretty close to the last minute before the G went out the door. If you break it down, HotDQ is in hard mode according to the published guidelines for encounter building, that the subsequent books adhere to more closely. So, no, it's not just you, this is a bonkers module in terms of difficulty.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Yeah, the goblin caves are a TPK waiting to happen if the players try to fight their way through them. But the adventure gives them every opportunity to negotiate with either the goblins or klaarg (or both, and play them against each other.) I think it’s a very good use of a deadly encounter - yes, if you end up fighting and don’t retreat, you likely won’t survive. But several things have to go wrong for you to end up in that situation,

I’ve run those caves twice, and played through them once, and none of the PCs died. And they did fight their way through...but they also used the lost art of *sneaking*. I wonder if that’s the issue here. People thinking they can just charge in to every situation. Yes, your barbarian can kick in the door. But first sneak up on the guards and clobber them from behind, barricade the rest into the barracks, and *then* kick in the door.

 

[Tony Vargas]

...but they also used the lost art of *sneaking*. I wonder if that’s the issue here.

IDK, 'lost art' implies that it was once a thing. But trying to hide-in-shadows/move-silently up on something back in the day was really kinda improbable, and you had to be far in advance of your party's healer & best fighters (all in clanky heavy armor), to even try. So it tended to get you killed. Eventually, the system got the idea that maybe having to succeed at two skill checks to accomplish one thing was a bit off, and combined them into Stealth, but, even then, if your whole party Stealthed up (opposed by one or more enemies), it was prettymuch a given that someone would fail, (and/or one of the enemies would roll really high) and blow the whole thing.

Now, we have Group Checks vs Passive Perception, and sneaking up and surprising the enemy is finally practicable.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I don’t even mean every character needed to use the Stealth skill. I was talking about it with my friend and decided that what I am getting at is more of just having characters think of solutions other than barging into everything thinking they can handle it. I’m having a bit of a “kids these days” moment, but I just imagine newer players trying to survive the fun Planescape adventure “The Eternal Boundary” I ran a couple years ago. That adventure is totally doable (and my players survived), and was obvious to them that you shouldn’t (for a number of reasons) kick in the doors of the Mortuary and treat it like a dungeon (or do the same thing with the Citadel of Fire). My players put on disguises and bluffed their way through most of it, though they did have a difficult fighting retreat (that’s a real thing!) from the Citadel of Fire once they were found out. They finished the adventure after that by just telling a faction or two what was going on, making the villain’s plans useless. (Of course, now they’ve made enemies that might pop up again at some point...)

I think the issue is that people coming into D&D nowadays are used to MMOs or other games where it is expected that if it is standing there in your way you can kill it. The DM is running this adventure, so the same must be true about anything we see, right? No. How boring that would be. Yes, an adventure that is fed to you as your only option should be winnable, but that doesn’t mean you should be able to kill anything you think is blocking your goals.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think there’s a sweet spot somewhere between “you can march right up to any enemy the DM puts in front of you and expect to win against it” and “you can never expect to win without using Guerilla tactics.” Where exactly that sweet spot is will vary from group to group, but in the end, most players want a genuine challenge, but also a reasonable chance to overcome that challenge. Nobody likes a fight they have no chance of winning, but a game where you’re never in danger of losing a fight gets boring quickly. That’s why I’m a big fan of well-telegraphed deadly encounters. If the players can see the fight coming, know it’s likely to be more than they can handle, and have the opportunity to make preparations to shift the odds in their favor, that’s a deadly encounter done right, in my opinion. And that’s what the goblin caves in LMoP are.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I think there’s a sweet spot somewhere between “you can march right up to any enemy the DM puts in front of you and expect to win against it” and “you can never expect to win without using Guerilla tactics.”

What, you're not accepting the CaS/CaW dichotomy?
How reasonable of you.

Where exactly that sweet spot is will vary from group to group, but in the end, most players want a genuine challenge, but also a reasonable chance to overcome that challenge. Nobody likes a fight they have no chance of winning, but a game where you’re never in danger of losing a fight gets boring quickly. That’s why I’m a big fan of well-telegraphed deadly encounters. If the players can see the fight coming, know it’s likely to be more than they can handle, and have the opportunity to make preparations to shift the odds in their favor, that’s a deadly encounter done right, in my opinion.

One thing that helps is having ways of resolving too-deadly-combat encounters in another way that may still advance the goals of the PCs (even if that's, well, survival) and be engaging for the players. Shifting pillars, for instance. An encounter is too powerful to fight? Can it be reasoned with? (Interaction) Can it be discovered in advance and avoided? (Exploration)

Of course, that assumes social resolution more engaging than a Diplomacy check, and/or exploration resolution more inclusive than sending out a lone scout.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

They did a good job of talking their way out of a couple fights. One of the group is pretending to be a cultist. They could have fought the Fruulam alone by going up the ladder. They knew where the guards were and how many there were and where the boss was. They chose to go through all the guards because they didn’t want to have to go up the ladder one at a time.

The biggest issue is they never felt like a long rest was reasonable. They obliterated the kobolds and one of the bosses and needed to rest. They knew how many enemies were left but felt that, if they waited, their attack would be discovered and they would lose surprise. There was lots of talk of smoking the enemies out which could have worked possibly. I just feel like there was one room too many. It didn’t help that they got wasted by the stirges. That encounter should have been easier.

Maybe if I hadn’t levelled them they would have been more cautious.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The biggest issue is they never felt like a long rest was reasonable. They obliterated the kobolds and one of the bosses and needed to rest. They knew how many enemies were left but felt that, if they waited, their attack would be discovered and they would lose surprise.

Pacing can be kinda fraught in 5e, you need to push the party through enough encounters/day to keep it challenging, and keep the various classes contributing meaningfully, and that often means emphasizing time importance and the downsides of resting...
...at the same time, if they take on too much, it'll go south fast.

It's a delicate balancing act, and, like designing encounters, is at least as much art & experience as working within the guidelines' formulas.