Hordes of the Abyss: Q&A

[Rystil Arden]

I think there's a gray area--a rather large one, in some cases--between something being a "high CR X" and something that should be CR X+1. There's a lot of wiggle room in the CR system, and the fact that something of CR X is tougher than something else of CR X doesn't always mean that one of them is of the wrong CR.

This is definitely true. And different groups of PCs may be universally better or worse at beating encounters (probably not worse unless underitemed) than the CRs would indicate or more likely situationally better or worse based on what sorts of opponents appear (as James mentioned with the dread wraith and the party of rogues and bards, Olidammara watch over their souls). Sometimes, you can change the CR dramatically simply by switching around the feat selection--especially with the high HD opponents in the MM that were lazily statted up with large numbers of iterations of Toughness. In the end, the only way to know if the encounter's CR is about right is to playtest the encounter yourself, using the characters in your party in the playtest.

 

[James Jacobs]

As someone firmly in the "demon lords should be way tougher" camp, I'll admit that I'm a bit less concerned now that I've got the book. James means it when he says that they are tough for their CR.

Keep in mind also that the stat blocks in Book of Vile Darkness were 3.0. Part of the 3.5 revision's purpose was to fix a lot of the high CR monster stat blocks; playtesting of high-level PCs wasn't quite as extensive as it was for mid or low level, and as a result, a lot of the high CR monsters in the 3.0 rules were underpowered. Check out the differences between the 3.0 and the 3.5 balor for an example.

In building the 3.5 FC I stats, I followed the same logic; using the Monster Manual monsters' hp, AC, attacks, average damage, and saves as guidelines. As a result, the FC I incarnation of any given demon lord isn't that much weaker to the stats given in the Book of Vile Darkness, and, as Shade points out, in some cases they're actually tougher.

 

[James Jacobs]

James, while you're here:

Were the nashrou and deathdrinker (both listed on the CR list) cut for space, or are they from another not-yet-released supplement?

Those two are from a not-yet-released book (which actually added two more demons beyond those two... d'oh) that is just around the corner.

In the concepting stages of FC I, when I was going through and compiling a list of the new demons and demon lords to appear in the book, I came up with a fairly over-the-top list of demons. According to that list, there were originally around 30 of each, for a total of 60 stat blocks. It quickly became apparent that there was no way I'd be able to fit that many into the book, so before the actual writing began I had to agonize over who would make the cut and who would have to go.

Even when it came to actually writing, I had to cut some. This is why the uridezu demon and the shadow demon didn't get updated (I left them off simply because they seemed to need updating the least), and why I had to cut loose a few brand new demons (like the manitou loumara, the grimorak tanar'ri, and the omothobokola obyrith, or the stats for Lamashtu). Hopefully these demons'll see the light of day somewhere... perhaps in a Dragon article or something.

Anyway, from my final turnover, only one stat block ended up getting cut; the laghathti obyrith, an octopoid menace that lives in the River Styx. I have a feeling he might show up in a web enhancement, though...

 

[sckeener]

An inexperienced DM running monsters with CRs in the low 20s? Yeah, it sure would suck to get up over 15-18th level and still consider the DM inexperienced. Really, when does this happen?

It happens. I've noticed it especially in the old timers that like to play 2nd or 1st edition characters converted over to 3 or 3.5. The DM doesn't know the rules well because they've been playing other systems and then are expected to give a decent challenge like they did in the other system....instead they give TPK or a total walk in the park.

The CRs are there to be guides for inexperienced DMs. An experienced DM can play with CR like it is candy.

 

[Shade]

Those two are from a not-yet-released book (which actually added two more demons beyond those two... d'oh) that is just around the corner.

In the concepting stages of FC I, when I was going through and compiling a list of the new demons and demon lords to appear in the book, I came up with a fairly over-the-top list of demons. According to that list, there were originally around 30 of each, for a total of 60 stat blocks. It quickly became apparent that there was no way I'd be able to fit that many into the book, so before the actual writing began I had to agonize over who would make the cut and who would have to go.

Even when it came to actually writing, I had to cut some. This is why the uridezu demon and the shadow demon didn't get updated (I left them off simply because they seemed to need updating the least), and why I had to cut loose a few brand new demons (like the manitou loumara, the grimorak tanar'ri, and the omothobokola obyrith, or the stats for Lamashtu). Hopefully these demons'll see the light of day somewhere... perhaps in a Dragon article or something.

Anyway, from my final turnover, only one stat block ended up getting cut; the laghathti obyrith, an octopoid menace that lives in the River Styx. I have a feeling he might show up in a web enhancement, though...

Sweet! You can never have too many demons. I'm now looking more forward to MMIV.

I was wondering about the uridezu. Thanks for answering my question, and then some.

 

[BOZ]

It's just on the map. I think I simply forgot to give Dahak a paragraph when I was writing the damn thing.

unforgiveable!

hey well, you can always see to it that he's worked into the Demonomicon at some point.

and i hereby request to see Hacamuli make an appearance when Orcus gets a treatment in the article.

 

[BOZ]

Correct. In fact, the simultaneous opening of the Wells of Darkness is as good a trigger as any for Ragnarok.

does that mean the Midgard Serpent is in there as well?

 

[Sammael]

I sure hope Nidhogg is safe and sound in the Grey Waste.

 

[Shemeska]

and why I had to cut loose a few brand new demons (like the manitou loumara, the grimorak tanar'ri, and the omothobokola obyrith, or the stats for Lamashtu). Hopefully these demons'll see the light of day somewhere... perhaps in a Dragon article or something.

Manitou loumara?

Anyway, from my final turnover, only one stat block ended up getting cut; the laghathti obyrith, an octopoid menace that lives in the River Styx. I have a feeling he might show up in a web enhancement, though...

I hope most of the cut material will end up making its way into web enhancements, especially the fluffy stuff. Will be interesting to see, as tempted as I am to refer to it as sushi for Marraenoloths

 

[demiurge1138]

I sure hope Nidhogg is safe and sound in the Grey Waste.

The Midgard Serpent, Jormundganr, is not Nidhogg. Two different horrible dragons with connections to Ragnarok. Presumably, the Midgard Serpent is still wrapped around a Prime Material world and Nidhogg is busy chewing on Yggdrasil's roots in the Grey Waste.

Now, the Wells of Darkness would be a good place to bind Fenris.

Demiurge out.