Hordes of the Abyss: Q&A

[Erik Mona]

Razz,

The intent of the material as written was that the FC1 stats represent very powerful aspects of the demon lords that are best encountered off the demon lord's home plane. If you assume that the demon lord's "true" stats are significantly higher, you'll probably be much happier. The stats aren't exactly the same as the Demonomicon stats because aspects do not exactly model weaker versions of the true stats, but reflect an "aspect" of the demon lord.

James can speak more to this, as he wrote the section, but my impression is that the one sentence that would have made the whole thing "no big deal" was either cut in editing or never written in the first place. I'm hoping something on this is addressed in the errata, and I will be playing these guys as powerful aspects in my own campaign.

--Erik Mona

 

[Shade]

It's just on the map. I think I simply forgot to give Dahak a paragraph when I was writing the damn thing.

--Erik

Well, I suppose it'll turn up in 9th Edition.

Any hints on what you'd considered doing with him? Was he fated to destroy the Material Plane, and thereby imprisoned to avoid this fate?

 

[Nightfall]

Erik,

Is it just me, or was there a lot of winking and nudging going on in FC I in regards to Savage Tides?

 

[Mouseferatu]

So which is it? Is Baphomet's DR 20/good, cold iron, and epic or just 20/epic?

I think this question, and others like it, point right to the crux of the matter at hand. A lot of people seem to think there's one "true" form of the demon lords in "canon" D&D, and everything else is optional or house ruled.

I don't buy that reasoning. Third edition is largely a toolkit. There is no "right" answer.

So, in response to the question, the answer is "Whichever way you prefer it in your campaign." There simply is no other possible reply.

 

[Erik Mona]

Any hints on what you'd considered doing with him? Was he fated to destroy the Material Plane, and thereby imprisoned to avoid this fate?

Correct. In fact, the simultaneous opening of the Wells of Darkness is as good a trigger as any for Ragnarok.

--Erik

 

[James Jacobs]

Is it just me, or was there a lot of winking and nudging going on in FC I in regards to Savage Tides?

Heh... it's a lot more than winking and nudging. A fair amount of FC I works as a preview for what'll be happening in the last four adventures of Savage Tide.

As for the power level of the demon lords, I've talked a bit about this elsewhere but the long and short of it is that each DM should determine the power level of the demon lords as appropriate for his own campaign. That said, they shouldn't be any LESS deadly than the stats in FC I; those stats are a "baseline" for the demon lords. You should certainly advance these stats upward in power for your own campaign if you prefer CR 25 or 30 or 50 or whatever... there just wasn't room in the book to list multiple versions of the same stat block so that the book would be useful for a wider range of gaming styles. In the end, we had to go with just one, and since it's FAR easier to increase a monster's abilities than to decrease it, we chose the method you see in the book.

Personally, I prefer demon lords at CRs of 25–32 or thereabouts, which is what I've been setting them at in the Demonomicon articles. I think the stats in FC I work perfect for powerful avatars or astral projections; on their home planes, demon lords should be MUCH more powerful. For new stat blocks like Pale Night and Obox-ob, there are no "missing" powers that were cut. They were designed as how they appear in the book from the ground up. If and when these demon lords appear in Dragon as Demonomicons, you can expect to see higher CR versions with one or two additional powers. If you can't wait that long, the book provides all the tools you need to advance them yourself.

Now, all that said, the demon lords are VERY TOUGH for their CR scores, especially when compared to a balor (which is actually a little weak for CR 20). Their CR scores may only be a couple digits beyond 20, but their stats are comperable to equal CR dragons (another creature type that tends to be tough for their CR scores).

So in the end... think of FC I as any other 3rd Edition Product; as a toolbox for you to build your campaign the way you want it. In the end, it's a LOT easier to advance Demogorgon to CR 32 than it is to build a CR 32 NPC!

And to bring this post full circle back to Savage Tide, fans of tougher Demon Lords certainly won't be disapointed by this campaign's conclusion—we don't intend on having fight after fight with CR 20 demon lords. The demon lords in Savage Tide (Demogorgon being only the most important, not the only, demon lord to the campaign's plotline) will be tough. Dragotha/Kyuss tough. They won't be creatures to fight and loot, but dangerous foes and possible allies that requie more than initiative checks to handle.

 

[BryonD]

Now, all that said, the demon lords are VERY TOUGH for their CR scores, especially when compared to a balor (which is actually a little weak for CR 20). Their CR scores may only be a couple digits beyond 20, but their stats are comperable to equal CR dragons (another creature type that tends to be tough for their CR scores).

Why is that?

In the end low CRs just mean that characters get under-rewarded for overcoming the challenge and inexperienced DMs are more likely to accidently throw a TPK at a party.

 

[Uder]

Why is that?

In the end low CRs just mean that characters get under-rewarded for overcoming the challenge and inexperienced DMs are more likely to accidently throw a TPK at a party.

An inexperienced DM running monsters with CRs in the low 20s? Yeah, it sure would suck to get up over 15-18th level and still consider the DM inexperienced. Really, when does this happen?

 

[BryonD]

As for the power level of the demon lords, I've talked a bit about this elsewhere but the long and short of it is that each DM should determine the power level of the demon lords as appropriate for his own campaign. That said, they shouldn't be any LESS deadly than the stats in FC I; those stats are a "baseline" for the demon lords.

I completely agree with the first statement.
What is the basis of the second statement?

IMO, they shouldn't be any LESS deadly than a whole lot MORE deadly than FCI stats peg them.

I understand the reasoning of most people stop by level 20 and this puts them in reach of those games. I think it is a bad theory, but I understand it.

But if being able to cast L9 spells puts a character on par with a demon lord, then what law states that it must end there?
The conventional wisdom is that a great majority of games end well before 20th level. Should groups that stop at L12 or L15 have demon lords denied them?

It makes total sense to me to say demon lords should be more powerful than any standard character ("standard" being pretty much anything in the core 3 books, up to L20 chars). So the minimum CR should be mid to upper 20s and probably higher.

You can argue all day as to whether they should be CR29 or CR89 and it makes no difference. There is a big gulf between debating just how much more powerful than a core character they should be and saying that they need not be any more powerful than core characters at all. There is a logical dividing point there.

If Jubliex can be CR19, then why are you stating that he may not be CR18? If he can be CR18, then why not CR17? Where does it stop?

If you can say that being up to casting Wish is powerful enough, then I can say that being up to casting Limited Wish can be as well. I don't believe that either of those statements really hold water within the expected mythology. But, compared to the expected mythology, the first statement is so flawed that the difference to the second statement is negligible.

You made the statement that they should be no less powerful than presented. I'd really like to know WHY. Can you present a justification for that statement which does not beg the question of why they are permitted to be sub-epic?

 

[James Jacobs]

Why is that?

In the end low CRs just mean that characters get under-rewarded for overcoming the challenge and inexperienced DMs are more likely to accidently throw a TPK at a party.

Because fights with dragons or demon lords shouldn't be minor encountes. They should be memorable. They should also be major encounters that the PCs know they're going into; and therefore these monsters reflect the fact that the PCs probably took the time to prepare specific spells or tactics to use against them.