Hordes of the Abyss: Q&A

[sckeener]

I just finished my first read through. Wow

Erik: Great writing! I loved Chapter 5. I found myself reading out loud portions to my girlfriend [seriously.] Thanks for the romantic imagery (kidding.) The attention to detail was amazing. I want more, either official or unofficial from you...so turn over your notes! I want some web enhancements and some 3rd party supplements. I saw so many nods to gaming history that I was very impressed with your work ethic. It shows that you care about the material and that you put in the effort to make this a great product...

Thanks again.

 

[JustaPlayer]

So I was looking at the Map of The Wells of Darkness on page 139 and saw that 9 beings were named. Curiously the one I was intersted in "Dahak", was the only one not given a description. Was this cut out of the book?

 

[qstor]

question

I just mine at my FLGS yesterday. Awesome job! Huge thanks and praise to Erik and James. Its nice to see some of the Dragon stuff make it to hardback! I'm looking forward to other demon related WOTC or Paizo material.

I had a quick question for Erik/James - How come no mention of Iuz in any of the lords enteries?

Mike

 

[Garnfellow]

1. What strength has and what size Dagon is ??
2. What strength has and what size Kostchtchie is ??

Dagon is Gargantuan with 25 HD
Kostchtchie is Huge with 23 HD

I have been intrigued by Dagon ever since the cryptic description in the 1st edition MMII. I even statted out my own version back in second edition, but this version is so much cooler. The art for him is of this titanic being emerging from the depths, its form like one of those weird deep-sea fishes crossed with an H. R. Giger nightmare.

 

[Zarnam]

Yep, Dagon, as all the other (non-evolved, like Pazuzu) Obyriths are very Lovercraftian, as James himself said several posts ago

 

[KL]

Fiendish Codex

Okay, I have this tome for up to a week now and here is what my reaction is:

A lot of people complain about demon lords being underpowered. Yet the fact that you have the power and option to advance them and customized them make them more fearsome because they will remain an unknown quantity. I mean, in the old days, oh Lolth, she has 66 hp. Now, you can't be sure if the demon prince who is about to b-slap you is an aspect, or the real thing. I meant, think about Iggwilv. She has not been stated yet and the moment we know what class she is and what level she's at, she will lose her mystique.

Second is that I am disappointed that there aren't feats or classes to advance demons in special and unique ways.

About the demon lords, I was particularly disppointed that Aldinach is the "lady of change" when mythologically, she is an Egyptian storm demon. Soneillon is listed as a demoness concerned with rejuvenation when mythologically, she is said to tempt through hatred. What happened to Ereshkigal and Nergel? (Perhaps Return to the Keep of Borderland cemented their status as deities, not demon lords). Cabiri is well-known as a volcanic demon, and I think Erik Mona is equating him with Gygax's Shabriri (who also happens to have multiple eyes), and both are mythologically different beings (Shab is a demon from Hebrew folklore).

Although I have to give kudos to Kardum, King of the Balors, whose name is an anagram of Marduk, Gygax' Kings of the Fire Demons in his (Godawful) Gord books, and Ilsidahur is finally mentioned again.

As for the appendixes, I do noticed certain discrepancies....under Lords of the Abyss, Malcanthet was left out and so was her layer in Layers of the Abyss. The listing for demons left out (perhaps intentionally) many Dragon magazine demons, yet the CR list have skurchur, water demon (but not the other 5 elemental demons), and "Blood drinker" (huh?).

Overall, it is nice, but at 160 pages, I think 200 should be more like it.

 

[Baron Opal]

A question for our esteemed authors.

What would be different if you didn't feel any obligation whatsoever to be guided by past demonic lore?

For example, I have always felt that mind flayers would be as close as atheistic as you could be in a D&D setting. They just can't conceive of submitting to any other entity beyond themselves. So, the notion of gods of the mind flayers has always been jarring for me. If I was hired to write Lords of Madness, I would prefer keep silent, at least, on the topic of illithid gods. Preferentially, I would retcon them away.

 

[Mr Baron]

oh so sweet

What a great thread! Many thanks to Eirk & James for their commentary...I am hoping to get my copy within the next day or so.

 

[Wycen]

About the demon lords, I was particularly disppointed that Aldinach is the "lady of change" when mythologically, she is an Egyptian storm demon. Soneillon is listed as a demoness concerned with rejuvenation when mythologically, she is said to tempt through hatred. What happened to Ereshkigal and Nergel? (Perhaps Return to the Keep of Borderland cemented their status as deities, not demon lords). Cabiri is well-known as a volcanic demon, and I think Erik Mona is equating him with Gygax's Shabriri (who also happens to have multiple eyes), and both are mythologically different beings (Shab is a demon from Hebrew folklore).

Regarding Aldinach, consider this. She was first mentioned in the list of lords in the first Monster Manual 2.

Years later, along comes Legendary Adventures, by Gary Gygax. And from that we even later get a conversion of one of those adventures, Necropolis by Necromancer Games.

In Necropolis, we find Aldinach. Curiously, Aldinach appears as a male demon. Why? Because Rahotep, evil and powerful spellcaster that he is, "changed Aldinach's original form".

So, whether or not Erik took that into account or not, I see it is appropriate. Storms can cause violent change, so its a good mesh.

 

[James Jacobs]

A question for our esteemed authors.

What would be different if you didn't feel any obligation whatsoever to be guided by past demonic lore?

For example, I have always felt that mind flayers would be as close as atheistic as you could be in a D&D setting. They just can't conceive of submitting to any other entity beyond themselves. So, the notion of gods of the mind flayers has always been jarring for me. If I was hired to write Lords of Madness, I would prefer keep silent, at least, on the topic of illithid gods. Preferentially, I would retcon them away.

I agree completely; in my campaigns, mind flayers are completely without gods or faith. That said, their deities are here to stay, I suspect; they've got a lot of fans and have been established so that retconing them would do more damage than anything else. Fortunately, the mind flayer chapter wasn't one I wrote for Lords of Madness so I wasn't faced with this conundrum, and instead I was able to scratch that itch on the aboleth chapter.

As for demons, there's not much I would abandon, to tell the truth. I've been a fan of the D&D demons and the Abyss more or less from day 1 of my D&D days, and nothing major jumps to mind. While I feel that layers of the Abyss beyond the 666th are unnecessary and I would have rather stressed more that the demon lord stat blocks are for off-plane manifestations of these powerful creatures, most everything in the book is the way I wanted it to be (and I believe Erik would agree). The Abyss is an enormous place, and there's plenty of room for new ideas in there without invalidating or abandoning anything that's come before.