JoeGKushner said:
And they reuse art like the cover from Dungeon and the old Orcus piece.
I'll agree, this is not exactly cool. Not terrible, but not cool either. Perhaps the designers submitted these pieces in the art order as samples of what to do, and the art department got lazy, saying, "hey, these are perfectly good pieces, why do new ones?" well, except for the BoVD orcus - what's up with that?

fat slobby orcus is da man! Yeenoghu and Juiblex in BoVD were OK, but at least they did not reuse the Demogorgon from that book.

what actual percentage of the book's art is recycled?
Psion said:
I haven't found any of WotCs 3e fiendish additions to be that interesting, but found their ommissions and modifications vexing. Weak ultroloths? Four armed nycoloths?
with any luck, maybe they will hire you on as a consultant for FC3.
JoeGKushner said:
One of the nice things is that it does include a 'master' list of demons that have appeared in varous products including the abyssal drake of the draconomicon!
kickass!

how long is this list? like as in, percentage of a page? it's in the appendix i'm assuming? that's one of the cool things that the folks around here helped contribute to.
JoeGKushner said:
I know off the top of my head that Pale Night is there. She's seen as a 'mother' figure but mother of what varies depending on whose telling the tale.
Faces of Evil: The Fiends, page 61:
"The
Mors Mysterium Nominum book says she is also the mother of Graz'zt, Lupercio, and Vucarik of Chains."
This is the only quote I'm aware of, linking Pale Night as the mother of any specific demons. OK, a reference book makes a possibly dubious claim, but especially when you are talking about shifty ol' demons, this does not necessarily make it a true fact. I like the way she's presented in FC1.
Razz said:
It's easier to weaken a creature than to make it stronger.
no... it simply isn't. the MM has a whole chapter dedicated to increasing a creature's power level. it says nothing at all about making a creature weaker, so if you want to do that, it's DIY.
Erik Mona said:
Because I love lying to people and I particularly enjoy upsetting you, my sweet.
eh heh heh heh heh heh!

if you won't have Piratecat, i could make myself available!
Shade said:
Another question: Do the arrow and sorrowsworn demons from MMIII get a more "demony" name in this book? As it stands, on a list of demons, they stick out like sore thumbs. :\
good question, old pal. those names are very off-putting for me as well.
Sammael said:
And now one question for the DDM fans out there: are any minis from the upcoming Blood War set hinted at/mentioned in the book? The blurb on WotC site says Blood War will contain minis from FC1.
another good question! it would be so neato keen to have some demon lord minis.
Ripzerai said:
It seems like a good end-boss for a 20th level game would be a powerful balor with a few class levels. I thought that was what balors were for in 3.5 - to provide appropriate threats to 20th level characters.
Makes sense to me.
actually, i'll agree with you there. balors were ramped up quite a bit to make them basically the toughest non-unique demons on the block (as well they should be). it seems to make sense that even the lowliest of demon lords should have notably more power. but oh well, to each his own.
Shade said:
Now if they are to appear again in
Complete Demon, well...
if that ever comes to be, it better damn well be a sequel to FC1 instead of yet another rehashing...
Sammael said:
As a reminder, even H4 (Throne of Bloodstone) assumed the characters would be 100th level before duking it out with Orcus. Now, 100th level characters from that time certainly wouldn't convert to 3.x 100th level characters - but they wouldn't be level 20 either, for sure.
just to pick nits...

as i understand it, H4 did not expect or require PCs to be 100th level, just that the module was able to *accommodate* 100th level PCs. i think you did have to be a minimum of 20th level though. i speak from ignorance and hearsay though, as i have not read the module through.
Shemeska said:
5) What is mentioned regarding Charon as a yugoloth lord, and what context is he mentioned in.
IIRC, i think Erik suggested that he was only mentioned incidentally as a note for the River Styx, that he was the best navigator or something. i don't expect Joe to find it easily, as it is probably a sentence or two at most, and fairly obscure.
Kobold Avenger said:
I seem to remember in Dead Gods when there's the confrontation against Orcus/Tenebrous in Agathion, should the PCs be too late in destroying the wand (something really difficult to do, as one PC would likely have to sacrifice their life inorder to do that), it says he'll just simply kill the PCs unless they use some sword to delay him for 1d3 hours. No stats there, just a mention that they'll die anyways, because he knows the Last Word and wants them dead.
yep, the Last Word is some powerful s---.

i mean, it killed a few gods, plus a lesser archomental and Primus, among others no doubt. what mortal, no matter how powerful, is going to stand up against something as devastating as that?
Psion said:
The canon-fans should note that a LOT of canon research went into this book (just ask BOZ). But canon is not, and IMO should not, be the design criteria that trumps all design criteria.
why thank you, Alan.

and i'll agree with your second sentence as well.
i'd like to think that our research made an impact in the book, and from Erik and James' comments as we posted more and more bits of info, i can only assume that it did. especially upon hearing that there would be in the appendix a list of all known demon lords, and all known Abyssal layers (IIRC).
speaking of which, oh, Joe!!
any hints on which demon lords, besides the main 14, were given mention and further info in the book? James said something like 80 - could you get us at least a partial list when you have the time?
and could you see if you have the chance to list which Abyssal layers are described?
now, to get back to finishing on re-reading the rest of the thread...