Hordes of the Abyss.

[Ripzerai]

Does anyone actually want his nasty ooze plane?

Zuggtmoy does. She can probably count on help from her ally Iuz, too.

It seems entirely possible that his plane, to put it bluntly, sucks so bad that noone else wants it

A new ruler might well be able to turn it into something completely different, depending on how radical the power of an Abyssal Lord over its divinely morphic layer is. If they have the powers of a greater deity, they can change the elements of the layer entirely, turning a cavern full of slime into a brilliant blue sky filled with solid pink clouds.

 

[Nightfall]

Erstwhile ally, Rip. It's not like Iuz doesn't have his moods...

 

[Mouseferatu]

Okay, this is quoted, verbatim, from Erik Mona in one of the other threads.

The book mentions that demon lords control their layers more or less at will several times. The layers have the "divinely morphic" trait from the MotP, and for these purposes the demon princes who control a layer qualify as "divine."

--Erik

So even if you assume the demon lords use the stat blocks given in the books, rather than advancing them, they still have a major advantage over any potential rivals.

 

[Nightfall]

Yeah well it would help if we had an idea if they had any DvR or not. I mean in FR, Orcus and the rest don't have any DvR and aren't considered "divine". Something I'm against.

 

[Ripzerai]

Yeah well it would help if we had an idea if they had any DvR or not. I mean in FR, Orcus and the rest don't have any DvR and aren't considered "divine". Something I'm against.

I think we know they don't have any DvR. If they did, they wouldn't be CR 20.

They might, however, have effective DvR for the purposes of planar control.

If they don't, then they only have the powers that demigods have over their realms, which allow for some dramatic special effects but really aren't going to give them any substantial advantage against opponents.

Within this area, the deity can set any temperature that is normal for the plane where the realm is located (for the Material Plane, any temperature from -20ºF to 120ºF), and fill the area with scents and sounds as the deity sees fit. Sounds can be no louder than one hundred humans could make, but not intelligible speech or harmful sound. The deity’s ability to create scents is similar. A demigod or lesser deity can erect buildings and alter the landscape, but must do so through its own labor, through magic, or through its divine powers.

That's it.

 

[Nightfall]

Yeah but MAYBE if we believe REALLY hard enough...they get it.

 

[catsclaw227]

Story is first. Rules are secondary. For what good are the best rules if they do not fascilitate the story, as no one plays the RAW to be playing the RAW and that alone.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Unfortunately, in my experience, this is not true. There are those that chase the idea of Pun-pun with glee and in my opinion, these are playing RAW and that alone. That is why there are forums where people come up with uber characters.

This is pretty easy. The thing I had in my mind was somthing where when a demon prince is deposed the deposer starts off as himself, but eventually turns into the demon prince he just deposed. The universe needs orcus, so the demon that just deposed orcus becomes orcus. At firs it looks like an identity crisis, and thats what the balor thought it might be, but that second identity gets stronger, and his head starts to get more goatlike, but he figures, "who cares, after all, I took Orcus' place why can't I BE Orcus." He gets fatter, and more goat like, and then to his horror, he realises that he is not himself. Soon the deposing balor is just a memory. After seeing this happen a couple of times most demons won't raise a hand against the princes because they do not want to loose their own identity.

Imagine a cocky balor taking down juiblex only to slowly melt into the a jibbering and jabbering mad lord of oozes. As the process begins, his likes start to change, little things first, then more knowledge than he ever knew, then a new second personality that slowly takes over from the first. He seeks to escape, to adbicate his new throne, he seeks to have anyone replace him, they all bow to him and refuse. Feeling his slowly disolving mind and sense of self, he is filled with utter fear as his new minions start to refer to him as Lord Juiblex. Juiblex sits in power once more.

Dude, that's awesome. (With full Beavis and Butthead intonement) I am going to use this for sure. See, it's ideas like this, combined with Erik's comment about demon lords controlling their layers more or less at will that make the CR debate less important for me. If the Demon has CR20 "stats" yet has control over it's plane with divine morph, then there is great reason why the CR40/50/60 balor can't just kill him and be done with it. He'd never get to him in the first place. (At least that is how I would adjudicate it. -- Even if the SRD only says you can make things smell differently, I would say this extends to erecting barriers, molding the landscape to their whim, and manipulating the elements of the plane at will.)

Anyway, a web enhancement that clarifies the early assertion that the CR and stats are only when encountered off-plane will stop a lot of this discussion in it's tracks.

 

[The Serge]

So even if you assume the demon lords use the stat blocks given in the books, rather than advancing them, they still have a major advantage over any potential rivals.

No they don't. They get to make their layers smell bad have look nasty... Unless they have an effective rank of a greater power, they don't get to do much. And even if they do, there's nothing stopping any god with access to the more fearsome SDAs from pimping the demon lord in question inside it's layer, much less from a distance. Not to mention other demon lords or even balors.

 

[Mouseferatu]

No they don't. They get to make their layers smell bad have look nasty... Unless they have an effective rank of a greater power, they don't get to do much. And even if they do, there's nothing stopping any god with access to the more fearsome SDAs from pimping the demon lord in question inside it's layer, much less from a distance. Not to mention other demon lords or even balors.

I don't particularly care if, by the RAW, a god can take down a demon prince. Regardless of what Planescape said, I've never seen them as equals. I'm talking about Juiblex as written vs. some upstart balrog as written.

 

[Nightfall]

RAW, though Ari, if that's the case then how do you explain Kiaranselee rise in power after the death of Orcus OR her being afraid of Orcus IF she's a god and he's not.