Hordes of the Abyss.

[Ripzerai]

I don't particularly care if, by the RAW, a god can take down a demon prince. Regardless of what Planescape said, I've never seen them as equals. I'm talking about Juiblex as written vs. some upstart balrog as written.

Let me reiterate what a DvR 1 god can do in its realm:

- Change the temperature, within limits. So Kostchtchie can make it an arctic wasteland, and Azazel can make it a scalding desert. Because it's the Abyss, it's also plausible that this power could allow Alzrius to make his layer a fiery inferno. They could also, if they chose, reverse this, so Kostchtchie could make his realm a scalding desert or a fiery inferno. If he wanted.

This power could make things very unpleasant for mortal adventurerers, but isn't going to help against balors a whole lot.

- The demon lord can also fill the realm with scents and sounds, but they can't be harmful to anyone, and they can't be intelligible.

And that's it. That's all the power does.

If the demon lord has a greater effective DvR, it might be able to do something more impressive. But we don't yet know if that's the case.

 

[Nightfall]

yeah well it would be nice if they could do more than that, like bar gods from their realms. It should be that simple.

 

[Ripzerai]

yeah well it would be nice if they could do more than that, like bar gods from their realms. It should be that simple.

They could if they had an effective DvR of 6 or higher (as they did in 1e and 2e).

 

[Psion]

And that's it. That's all the power does.

Yeah. It's lame.

I like the vibe of the planar description better.

I see an Abyssal Lord having more sway than that. Rule 0 powers - activate...

 

[catsclaw227]

Yeah. It's lame.

I like the vibe of the planar description better.

I see an Abyssal Lord having more sway than that. Rule 0 powers - activate...

And that was my point too.

 

[Nightfall]

Agreed, Rule 0.5 activate! Form of Dicefreaks!

Well I honestly think that the big Three should, otherwise what's the point?

 

[Mouseferatu]

RAW, though Ari, if that's the case then how do you explain Kiaranselee rise in power after the death of Orcus OR her being afraid of Orcus IF she's a god and he's not.

A: I don't. AFAIAC, the interactions of gods in 2nd edition don't need to be explained by the RAW, since they weren't statted for that edition.

B: Kiaransalee hasn't been statted for 3E. Who's to say how much power she has now? She could be a fairly week demigod under the current system for all we know.

C: All of this assumes that the stat blocks given in Hordes of the Abyss represent the "true" demon lords. As has been reiterated time and again, this represents them at their bare weakest minimum. If one is going to insist that a D&D canon exists, why can't one also assume that in the Greyhawk or FR cosmologies--as opposed to the "generic world that's not quite Greyhawk" cosmology of the core rules--includes tougher/advanced variants of the demon lords? After all, it's not like Elminster is possible by the core rules, or even the epic RAW, yet he clearly exists in a "canon" setting.

 

[GVDammerung]

My advice to those who are disapointed with the demon lord stat blocks in the book: use them as avatars for the demon lords when they wish to work their evils off-plane, and either use the tougher stat blocks from Book of Vile Darkness or the Demonomicon articles for them when they're encountered on the Abyss. That's what I'll be doing in my own campaigns, and it's how we'll likely be handling things in any demon lord-associated adventrues that will be appearing in Dungeon.

Practically speaking, from what I am understanding, something very like this is how I intend to handle the situation - the stats will represent a proportional manefestation of the demon prince in question. I've been playing since OD&D so improvising around or in lieu of "official" rulings is no big thing. That's really not wherein the issue lies for me, as I can kluge till the cows come home, but rather in how the mythology is impacted. Post-Hordes, when discussing the demon princes, there will now likely be an inevitable wrangle over the place of the demon lords in the grand scheme of things given their revised stat blocks and no "official" explaination for the change. To those of us interested in those aspects of D&D where such things matter, or in the mythology more generally, a can of worms has been opened. To those so interested, this is very like a new class, feat or PrC being "unbalanced" is to those obsessed about those sorts things. A question then of whose ox, PrC or mythology is being gored. By no means does the demon prince CR issue "ruin" the book but it does take something of the bud off the rose as the demon princes are a big part of things.

NB EM- I know you didn't write the section Erik, you were a convenient example of the principle, however. What drew you to the demons way back when was, I suspect, the mythology, the back story, not the mechanics, illustrating the point of how the mythology matters and forms part of D&D's appeal, at least as much as the rules themselves, IMO. Unless of course, you love stat blocks, which from your moaning about doing the deific stats in that FR book you cowrote, I doubt.

 

[hong]

So you've got absolutely no issues with a creature that SHOULD be more powerful than another, being weaker? And we're not talking Remorhaz vs Frost Worm here. We're talking about something that is the equivilent of making Great Wyrm Dragons weaker than say...Very Old Dragons. It doesn't make sense.

Making sense is overrated.

Stop thinking.

 

[BryonD]

My advice to those who are disapointed with the demon lord stat blocks in the book: use them as avatars for the demon lords when they wish to work their evils off-plane, and either use the tougher stat blocks from Book of Vile Darkness or the Demonomicon articles for them when they're encountered on the Abyss. That's what I'll be doing in my own campaigns, and it's how we'll likely be handling things in any demon lord-associated adventrues that will be appearing in Dungeon.

I'm not worried about this book messing up MY game. It can't.

But now I'm forced to put my game at variance with the "official" D&D Solar > Orcus dynamic.
Which means I can pretty much significantly discount future worthwhile support.

If the majority of gamers really do want Orcus weaker than Solars, then I'm in the minority and you did the right thing. I can't recall anyone ever suggesting such an idea.

I am encouraged that you are suggesting Dungeon will run counter to this current.