Hordes of the Abyss.

[GQuail]

Making Epic Demon Lords
(I don’t feel like writing out these words for words, but I will try not to leave out anything.)
* Advance lord’s HD by an amount appropriate for your campaign’s needs. The lord BAB, saves, skills, feats, ability scores should increase as an Outsider.
* CR increase by 1 for every HD added.
* Add “epic” to DR requirement.
* New SR = CR+13
* Ability scores all increase 2 for every 5HD added.
* Gain Spell-like abilities (at will): Blasphemy (or Word of Chaos for obyrith.), Plane Shift, Shapechange, Unholy Aura. Feel free to add more, but remember not to over do it.
* Increase Caster level for Spell-like abilities by 1 for every 2 HD added. Remember this can overpower certain abilities.
* Feel free to add one or two new special actions or special qualities. eg.) Fraz-Urb’luu might gain Mordenkainen’s Disjunction by touch. Kostchtchie might gain a Cold breath weapon.

This actually sounds pretty serviceable to me. Sure, it's still a bit bare bones, but to those who complained that expanding a non-epic monster wouldn't make it as hardcore as a full epic monster, the suggestions for spell like abilities etc is at least a hint in the right direction. Without seeing the full text we can't be sure quite how much detial it goes in, but it is acknowledging that you change a lot more than just HD when you make them bigger.

If you're playing a campaign that high level, aren't you already spending a lot of work on this sort of thing anyway? If you're already making 30th level NPC wizards, or advancing a Dragon to be a challenge to your ECL 29 group, or making Paragon Slaadi to populate your epic level Limbo fortress.... then surely this is the same thing, increasing power levels from core material to match your game?

I agree that work like that is dull, but if you're playing an epic level game, you either get desensitized to it or you play something else. ;-)

 

[Psion]

If you're playing a campaign that high level, aren't you already spending a lot of work on this sort of thing anyway? If you're already making 30th level NPC wizards, or advancing a Dragon to be a challenge to your ECL 29 group, or making Paragon Slaadi to populate your epic level Limbo fortress.... then surely this is the same thing, increasing power levels from core material to match your game?

That's what I was thinking. This is pretty much a cakewalk compared to major NPCs I stat up every session.

 

[JoeGKushner]

She was statted in City of the Spider Queen web enhancement IIRC.

Well, that was Forgotten Realms, and Forgotten Realms isn't 'core' cannon right Mouse?

 

[Mirtek]

If these fiends established an alliance early enough, it would grow on its own strength so as to overwhelm an inherently more powerful opposition that could not create that alliance. Do you want some historical examples.

So have historical examples of alliances among demons? Historical RL examples don't work here, you can't apply human minds to the denizens of the abyss. They're not just a bunch of CE guys, they are CE that has taken bodies.

Just see here. This "pack of wolves" example is exactly what it would eventually come down to, that's where your "natural order" would fall apart (or at least where weak rulers won't be able to rule for centuries and more)

Nonetheless... the book's first purpose was to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, and that meant that we had to start the demon lord stat blocks at a baseline of about 20, since the vast majority of D&D players don't utilize the Epic level rules.

But wouldn't the better question not be: How many people do not utilize the epic level rules and yet still insist on being able to slay the demonlords?

I don't play epic level games, yet I also don't want to be able kill the demonlords at my non-epic l. It's like someone said in one of these threads "no one who plays only up to 5th level complains that he can't slay a firegiant" (or something like this).

By chosing not to play epic I am also chosing not to slay gods and archfiends. And seeing archfiends that aren't much tougher than our 20th level party is just a disappointin sight

It takes away all the awe and wonder of the metasetting, it's not cool to slay Baphomet if he's barely more powerfull than a balor.

 

[Umbran]

But wouldn't the better question not be: How many people do not utilize the epic level rules and yet still insist on being able to slay the demonlords?

I'd imagine quite a few. Slaying a demon lord sounds like just the sort of thing to be used to cap off a campaign that wasn't going to go on into epic levels.

 

[WarDragon]

I'd imagine quite a few. Slaying a demon lord sounds like just the sort of thing to be used to cap off a campaign that wasn't going to go on into epic levels.

No. It. Doesn't. We are talking about things that rule entire, infinite layers of the most hostile plane of existance in the D&D multiverse. Beings whose flavor would have us believe that they range from demigod-like power, to making Zeus and Odin wet themselves. At the very least, they should be able to defeat a fully advanced Balor, rather than have a risk of losing to a regular one. Any 20th level PCs that attack a demon lord in a cosmos that makes sense should get their souls eaten before they have a chance to roll initiative. Either that, or 20th level PCs should themselves make pantheon heads quiver in their divine boots, which raises a whole new set of problems and inconsistencies.

Bottom line: the demon lord stats in this book, including their half-assed "Epic advancement rules" make me sad.

 

[bolen]

Is this book out yet?

 

[jasamcarl]

So have historical examples of alliances among demons? Historical RL examples don't work here, you can't apply human minds to the denizens of the abyss. They're not just a bunch of CE guys, they are CE that has taken bodies.

Just see here. This "pack of wolves" example is exactly what it would eventually come down to, that's where your "natural order" would fall apart (or at least where weak rulers won't be able to rule for centuries and more)

But wouldn't the better question not be: How many people do not utilize the epic level rules and yet still insist on being able to slay the demonlords?

I don't play epic level games, yet I also don't want to be able kill the demonlords at my non-epic l. It's like someone said in one of these threads "no one who plays only up to 5th level complains that he can't slay a firegiant" (or something like this).

By chosing not to play epic I am also chosing not to slay gods and archfiends. And seeing archfiends that aren't much tougher than our 20th level party is just a disappointin sight

It takes away all the awe and wonder of the metasetting, it's not cool to slay Baphomet if he's barely more powerfull than a balor.

Uh, that's your silly assumption. There is no reason why i couldn't equally claim that a demon lord can't simply order his other minions to put down a rebellion; you define CE by a constant testing of physical strength, i do so as an eternally selfish struggle of survival, in which case no one would organize or speak up. This culture of strength would never undermine a lord because there is not culture to begin with, just raw power and deterrence.

And under those assumptions, the basics of political science could most certainly work. I

And please stop asserting what a demon is or isn't, especially when you oppurtunistically claim that some inspiration for a vaguely defined fictional universe (my historical ones) aren't as valid as your equally arbitrary b.s. The question was can a dm create there own fluff explanation for killable boss demons. It should have been obvious that it was, but I guess some of us are not as blessed with imagination.

 

[BronzeGolem]

Uh, that's your silly assumption.

No, that's not a silly assumption at all.

There is no reason why i couldn't equally claim that a demon lord can't simply order his other minions to put down a rebellion; you define CE by a constant testing of physical strength, i do so as an eternally selfish struggle of survival, in which case no one would organize or speak up. This culture of strength would never undermine a lord because there is not culture to begin with, just raw power and deterrence.

For LE this makes sense, since Lawful Evil allows for the possibility of loyalty.

For Demons with lesser power (say, succubi and below), this makes sense.

But your "demon lord will just order their minions to put down a rebellion" just doesn't make sense otherwise. The only reason why they'd follow the demon lord in the first place is because it's powerful enough to compel them to either outright or by scaring them into it, and more powerful than other demon lords that might treat them even worse. If they don't think that the demon lord can quash all resistance on it's own, then the demons under it are likely to either hold back or switch sides if they think that the challenger is likely to win, because if they don't support the challenger, the challenger will then punish them for it.

Do you see either the raw power or deterrence necessary to create this kind of obedience from what you've seen so far on this thread? So far-although I haven't seen the full stats yet-I haven't.

Quite frankly, it sort of sounds like you'd wish that there was no flavor with demons or demon lords at all and you'd just rather have a bunch of stats and a physical description.

 

[Delta]

No. It. Doesn't. We are talking about things that rule entire, infinite layers of the most hostile plane of existance in the D&D multiverse... Any 20th level PCs that attack a demon lord in a cosmos that makes sense should get their souls eaten before they have a chance to roll initiative.

Most famous D&D adventure of all time: GDQ1-7. Ends with a party of 10th-14th level wiping out Lolth, Demon Queen of Spiders and Lesser Goddess, on her own plane.

That's, like, the crown jewel of D&D mythology.