Hordes of the Abyss.

[Ripzerai]

Quite frankly, it sort of sounds like you'd wish that there was no flavor with demons or demon lords at all and you'd just rather have a bunch of stats and a physical description.

Why would anyone want a physical description? All DMs worth their salt can easily make up their own descriptions.

I think the main problem is the name, "Demon lord." It sounds impressive... lordly. And demonic. Get rid of the name and you get rid of the whiners who think they know what demon lords should be and how they should act. A simple serial number more than suffices. Are you telling me that Creature #2014398 shouldn't be CR 20? They should remove all names and include only blocks of stats, with no description, names, or any other features that would allow us to tell one from the other. Their abilities should be labeled things like "attack sequence A" or "defense mode B." That's all a really creative DM needs.

Complete Psion is a good start in this direction.

 

[Ripzerai]

Ends with a party of 10th-14th level wiping out Lolth, Demon Queen of Spiders and Lesser Goddess, on her own plane.

I argue that "Name Level" characters, as they were known at the time, were the equivalent of today's epic characters. In both cases, that's the point at which the rules change somewhat - characters stop gaining hit dice, for example. Demihumans often stopped advancing entirely. They represent the upper extremes of their respective game systems.

 

[Uder]

No. It. Doesn't. We are talking about things that rule entire, infinite layers of the most hostile plane of existance in the D&D multiverse. Beings whose flavor would have us believe that they range from demigod-like power, to making Zeus and Odin wet themselves. At the very least, they should be able to defeat a fully advanced Balor, rather than have a risk of losing to a regular one. Any 20th level PCs that attack a demon lord in a cosmos that makes sense should get their souls eaten before they have a chance to roll initiative. Either that, or 20th level PCs should themselves make pantheon heads quiver in their divine boots, which raises a whole new set of problems and inconsistencies.

Bottom line: the demon lord stats in this book, including their half-assed "Epic advancement rules" make me sad.

Great first post! Let me guess... DiceFreak?

This, to me, is the damage Planescape did to the D&D game. A cosmos full of hostile forces the PCs can never hope to assail. I love me some Lovecraft, but man, that style gets depressing in a game about beating monsters and taking stuff.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I argue that "Name Level" characters, as they were known at the time, were the equivalent of today's epic characters. In both cases, that's the point at which the rules change somewhat - characters stop gaining hit dice, for example. Demihumans often stopped advancing entirely. They represent the upper extremes of their respective game systems.

I couldn't disagree more strongly. "Name level" evoked a few changes, but it still made use of the general core system. Name level characters, while rare and powerful, weren't the gods among men as epic characters more.

Most important, you could achieve name level within the standard rules, without having to tack on an additional, entirely seperate system that the book states is fully optional.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Even on a symbolic, as opposed to mechanical, level, "name level" didn't equate to the sort of power implied by the epic rules. A great many rulers and worthies of the various settings and modules were of name level. Heck, a fighter had to reach name level before he could build a fort or gather followers. "Name" level was just that--the point at which the characters had developed a true name for themselves, a reputation on which they could build.

Rare? Powerful? Absolutely. But not even remotely equatable to the epic rules in 3E, at least not in any campaign or setting I've ever heard of.

 

[Ripzerai]

Even on a symbolic, as opposed to mechanical, level, "name level" didn't equate to the sort of power implied by the epic rules.

Heh. You could kill Lolth. And balors, even.

A great many rulers and worthies of the various settings and modules were of name level.

A fair number are epic, too, though admittedly there isn't a one-to-one relationship (except in Union).

But not even remotely equatable to the epic rules in 3E, at least not in any campaign or setting I've ever heard of.

I throw 'em against the wall and see if they stick. But I think you may be interpreting this too literally. They're analogous, not the same.

 

[Uder]

Juiblex is up at WotC:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060601b&page=1

Edit: and it looks like a CR20 Balor can't even damage "him". More correctly, it looks like a fight between Juiblex and nearly any powerful demon would be a stalemate.

 

[Mouseferatu]

I throw 'em against the wall and see if they stick. But I think you may be interpreting this too literally. They're analogous, not the same.

I may, in fact, have taken it too literally. Sorry about that.

But I still don't feel it's an apt analogy. "Name" level was something achievable by mere mortals. It didn't represent a dramatic shift in the nature of the game, either IC or OOC.

The epic rules as presented in 3E represent an entirely different direction to the game than what the PCs have experienced before. They just don't serve the same purpose in any meaningful way.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Juiblex is up at WotC:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060601b&page=1

Edit: and it looks like a CR20 Balor can't even damage "him". More correctly, it looks like a fight between Juiblex and nearly any powerful demon would be a stalemate.

Not quite--Juiblex can barely damage the Balor and the Balor can barely damage Juiblex, unless Juiblex engulfs the Balor, in which case the Balor is still basically immune to Juiblex's Constrict, but Juiblex is only very weakly fire resistant and will eventually die to the Balor's 6d6 Flaming Body damage.

Out of melee, the Balor has a 55% chance to penetrate Juiblex's SR, and his spells have *much* higher DCs than Juiblex's, so Juiblex dies 5% of the time to the Implosion right away. Fire Storm is 55% likely to damage Juiblex, and 55% of the 55% will be for full damage (the other 45% is half thanks to a successful Reflex save). Juiblex has a better chance to penetrate the Balor's SR 28, barely, but his DCs are so awful that the Balor always saves except on a 1 except for Symbol of Insanity, which he saves against on a 2 (and has all the usual Symbol restrictions). Plus Juiblex does not have any instant kill spells anyway.

So basically, Juiblex cannot win. The Balor probably won't win before Juiblex Greater Teleports away, but otherwise, he has the edge. Also, he will eventually implode Juiblex if he flies in and tries it every day.

 

[Kunimatyu]

To be fair, though, the reason Jubilex stays the (partial) ruler of his plane is because nobody else wants it. Unlike most of the other demon lords, he doesn't have balors serving under him(just oozes and some hezrous) and it's unlikely one would really want to take over as ruler of oozes.

I mean, they're oozes. Any Balor worth his salt is going to focus on the demon lord with a harem of succubi instead.