Hordes of the Abyss.

[Ripzerai]

Anyway, surely it's better for an ambitious demon to rule half a layer than no realm at all. You've got to start somewhere.

 

[Kunimatyu]

For DM's with their own cosmology, who want to run campaigns where you kill Juiblex at 13, Orcus at 15, and Demogorgon at 18, I think these stats are great.

Nethack d20?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Juiblex is comical. You know, overall I don't really care one way or the other, and I'll never buy this book, even though I do really love Succubi, and I wouldn't mind having more flavor on them, but they ruined Tieflings by just...I dont even know what, making them the only +1 LA race that I wouldnt play at +0 LA, and then worse, Juiblex should be killable with those stats at what, level 13?

Lol. A Balor would laugh at this punk.

But, he's advanceable, and I think any DM with a RAW style cosmos will advance him quite a bit. For DM's with their own cosmology, who want to run campaigns where you kill Juiblex at 13, Orcus at 15, and Demogorgon at 18, I think these stats are great.

Level 13? Hmm...at much lower levels, magic is out of the question due to high SR. However, since he only has normal Combat Expertise and not ICE,anything that can Fly faster than his at-will Fly SLA (So Fly speed 70 or better) that has a bow with the appropriate arrows and the Fell Shot feat can kill Juiblex (or at least harass Juiblex unharmed until Juiblex runs away) if it can avoid his SLAs (and the DCs are laughably low).

Find a weak race that has that kind of Fly speed, give it at least +5 BAB, arm it with the appropriate arrows and a Cloak of Resistance or other save-enhancing gear, and you have the next Juiblex-slayer. Remember that Juiblex doesn't have Regeneration, Fast-Healing, or a healing power, so sooner or later, Juiblex is going to die off.

 

[Erik Mona]

At least if you believe Armies of the Abyss - and it sounds like Hordes of the Abyss is using the same backstory - originally there was only one layer in the Abyss. Each new layer is created by an Abyssal lord who manages to tear a part of a previous layer loose. So every layer was once defined by a demonic personality, even if it's now independent.

I'm surprised I wrote that in "Armies of the Abyss" (I think they added some stuff for "Book of Fiends"), but I suppose it's possible. "Hordes of the Abyss" presumes that the layers have always existed, or at least existed to be explored and discovered by the obyriths and the early tanar'ri. Lots still remain to be discovered and tamed, of course, and I would like to think it's possible to tear off part of one layer to make another, but the book doesn't explicitly say so, and it especially doesn't say that the Abyss ever consisted of a single layer.

--Erik

 

[fafhrd]

For what it's worth; my personal preference for demon lord stat blocks is in the 24–32 range (as they're presented in the Demonomicon articles in Dragon). In hindsight, it would have probably have been better to omit stat blocks for demon lords entirely from the book, but that would have done a great disservice to those DMs who want to use them as monsters to fight. Demon lords can serve as BBEGs of any CR or as undefeatable forces. The fact that they rule entire realms and layers on the Abyss tells me that they're tougher than the rank & file demons that otherwise dwell there (on up to and including balors), which is why I prefer to see their stats at a higher level.

Nonetheless... the book's first purpose was to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, and that meant that we had to start the demon lord stat blocks at a baseline of about 20, since the vast majority of D&D players don't utilize the Epic level rules. Since space in the book was a concern, I wasn't able to do an exhaustive treatment of how to advance the demon lord statblocks from their baselines up to whatever level suits the needs of your campaign; the section that IS in the book makes it as clear as possible that you SHOULD use the statblocks given as something to build upon.

I don't think that stat blocks for CR 20–23 demon lords is going to ruin them as viable villains in the D&D game, especially when the rest of the book makes it clear that they are the baddest of the bad on the Abyss (flavor-wise, at least). After all, the demon lords survived the whole "de-demoning" that D&D went through in the dark days of pre-Planescape 2nd Edition. And as GVDammerung put it so well several posts back: "Story is first. Rules are secondary." There's more flavor and story in Hordes of the Abyss than there is rules crunch—sure, the rules provide stats for relatively weak demon lords (although their actual stats are in fact rather tough; they're certainly no pushovers for a party of 20th level characters), but if you (like me) need stats for tougher demon lords, the tools are all there for you to build them to your exact needs. Barring that, keep an eye on Dragon for those Demonomicon articles (if you like your demon lords at CR 24–32, that is)—I'll keep writing them as long as the good editors at Dragon let me. Tome of Horrors is also an excelent resource if you want demon stat blocks that are even more powerful than that.

My advice to those who are disapointed with the demon lord stat blocks in the book: use them as avatars for the demon lords when they wish to work their evils off-plane, and either use the tougher stat blocks from Book of Vile Darkness or the Demonomicon articles for them when they're encountered on the Abyss. That's what I'll be doing in my own campaigns, and it's how we'll likely be handling things in any demon lord-associated adventrues that will be appearing in Dungeon.

James, I wanted to say, you are one classy guy. I think the weak demon lords were a mistake and a missed opportunity, but collectively we've likely already spent more time ruminating on the nuances of the issue then you ever could have. In spite of all the resulting strife, you've been reasonable and patient through and through. You're a credit to the industry. Thanks.

 

[BOZ]

Why would anyone want a physical description? All DMs worth their salt can easily make up their own descriptions.

I think the main problem is the name, "Demon lord." It sounds impressive... lordly. And demonic. Get rid of the name and you get rid of the whiners who think they know what demon lords should be and how they should act. A simple serial number more than suffices. Are you telling me that Creature #2014398 shouldn't be CR 20? They should remove all names and include only blocks of stats, with no description, names, or any other features that would allow us to tell one from the other. Their abilities should be labeled things like "attack sequence A" or "defense mode B." That's all a really creative DM needs.

brilliant.

 

[Aaron L]

This is pretty easy. The thing I had in my mind was somthing where when a demon prince is deposed the deposer starts off as himself, but eventually turns into the demon prince he just deposed. The universe needs orcus, so the demon that just deposed orcus becomes orcus. At firs it looks like an identity crisis, and thats what the balor thought it might be, but that second identity gets stronger, and his head starts to get more goatlike, but he figures, "who cares, after all, I took Orcus' place why can't I BE Orcus." He gets fatter, and more goat like, and then to his horror, he realises that he is not himself. Soon the deposing balor is just a memory. After seeing this happen a couple of times most demons won't raise a hand against the princes because they do not want to loose their own identity.

Imagine a cocky balor taking down juiblex only to slowly melt into the a jibbering and jabbering mad lord of oozes. As the process begins, his likes start to change, little things first, then more knowledge than he ever knew, then a new second personality that slowly takes over from the first. He seeks to escape, to adbicate his new throne, he seeks to have anyone replace him, they all bow to him and refuse. Feeling his slowly disolving mind and sense of self, he is filled with utter fear as his new minions start to refer to him as Lord Juiblex. Juiblex sits in power once more.

Use what you need!
Its all good baby!

I know Im late to reply to this, but let me add that this is awesome.


Almost makes me not care about the fairly weak demon lords.

 

[Uder]

Not quite--Juiblex can barely damage the Balor and the Balor can barely damage Juiblex, unless Juiblex engulfs the Balor, in which case the Balor is still basically immune to Juiblex's Constrict, but Juiblex is only very weakly fire resistant and will eventually die to the Balor's 6d6 Flaming Body damage.

Out of melee, the Balor has a 55% chance to penetrate Juiblex's SR, and his spells have *much* higher DCs than Juiblex's, so Juiblex dies 5% of the time to the Implosion right away. Fire Storm is 55% likely to damage Juiblex, and 55% of the 55% will be for full damage (the other 45% is half thanks to a successful Reflex save). Juiblex has a better chance to penetrate the Balor's SR 28, barely, but his DCs are so awful that the Balor always saves except on a 1 except for Symbol of Insanity, which he saves against on a 2 (and has all the usual Symbol restrictions). Plus Juiblex does not have any instant kill spells anyway.

So basically, Juiblex cannot win. The Balor probably won't win before Juiblex Greater Teleports away, but otherwise, he has the edge. Also, he will eventually implode Juiblex if he flies in and tries it every day.

Overall good analysis... for some reason I just blanked out on the fire storm, which does give the Balor an impressive "opening move". Big J has a fair chance of stopping implosion by readying to counterspell, but that assumes Juiblex has initiative and is willing to forego dispelling summons.

Juiblex could suffocate a Balor faster than it could burn him up, but only if the Balor was foolish enough not to use hit-and-run grapples. BTW, it looks like Juiblex's grapple check is off by 4, unless for some bizarre reason he doesn't qualify for a stability bonus? EDIT: Whoops, no, Juiblex can't engulf the Balor, too big.

The Balor can hurt Juiblex in melee, thanks to the fire damage. Until he fails to roll a 13 or better on a Ref save and loses his weapons that is. He'd be a fool to get into melee though, those Improved Critical slams could be unpredictable.

Grasping at straws... since the engulf smothers creatures, would it damp the Balor's fiery aura enough for the green slime spew to take hold? EDIT: Whoops, no, Juiblex can't engulf the Balor, too big.

It looks like fire is Big J's weakness, with only 10 points of resistance... if I were him (ick) I'd make sure to spend most, no all, of my time mostly submerged in acid where all lines of sight were likewise submerged. I'd say he should stay underwater (underacid?), but for some reason he still needs to breathe.

So yeah, one-on-one suicidal death match it looks like the balor can win.

As for the retriever and marilith mentioned in your other post? No. They've got to do way too much damage (or hope for Jubes to roll 1's in the case of the retriever) while J is whomping on them *and* spewing green slime as a free action every other round (2d6/round damage per patch. Marilith takes that *and* 1d6 Con each round per patch, no save. Both are large enough to sport several patches). Marilith needs Reflex saves of 18 to save her blades each time she wants to do a full attack - her slams are better choices, but still she's going to be dissolving away. Blade Barrier isn't too handy against a critter with greater teleport and greater dispel, although it could be used to root him out for someone else to attack if he was phase doored.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Even if he saves against the Retrievers, he still takes 11 Damage per Retriever per Fire Ray. With 3 Retrievers, that's 10% of his health each time the three of them fire even on successful saves. Also, note that his Reflex save is much worse than the Fort save (although he does need to roll a 1 to be petrified). Overall, Juiblex vs 3 Retrievers, the expected values of damage and saving throw rolls place Juiblex dead or petrified before the 3 Retrievers are finished off unless Juiblex flees. And remember, unlike Juiblex, the Retrievers have Fast Healing.

As for the Marilith--Juiblex never gets to attack her because unlike every other powerful demon, he doesn't have True Seeing, so he's going to be hitting on Projected Images. She attacks by placing the Blade Barrier on Juiblex himself. She gets through his SR on a 14 or higher and he saves for half on a 9 or above. But he still takes a bundle of pure force damage. After the initial round, she could care less if he escapes from it--it is used for direct damage rather than obstruction

 

[Uder]

Even if he saves against the Retrievers, he still takes 11 Damage per Retriever per Fire Ray. With 3 Retrievers, that's 10% of his health each time the three of them fire even on successful saves. Also, note that his Reflex save is much worse than the Fort save (although he does need to roll a 1 to be petrified). Overall, Juiblex vs 3 Retrievers, the expected values of damage and saving throw rolls place Juiblex dead or petrified before the 3 Retrievers are finished off unless Juiblex flees. And remember, unlike Juiblex, the Retrievers have Fast Healing.

Err, 10% of his hit points every four rounds doesn't seem like that much, especially when he's getting off two free blasts of slime for each cycle in addition to his slams. He's immune to the other two rays, and each ray can only be used once every 4 rounds. Meanwhile, their melee attacks are sliding right off of him... he's as immune to crits as they are.

If he's using the trick of staying mostly submerged, he's also going to be ignoring most of their ray damage (a ray attack with a Reflex save? What's up with that?) The nice thing about retrievers is their nature precludes them from choosing the battlefield...

That petrification attack is troubling, but hopefully he'd be smart enough to just phase door and start summoning.

As for the Marilith--Juiblex never gets to attack her because unlike every other powerful demon, he doesn't have True Seeing, so he's going to be hitting on Projected Images. She attacks by placing the Blade Barrier on Juiblex himself. She gets through his SR on a 14 or higher and he saves for half on a 9 or above. But he still takes a bundle of pure force damage. After the initial round, she could care less if he escapes from it--it is used for direct damage rather than obstruction

Ooh, good point on the Project Image. Too bad he's got blindsight.

If you save against a directly targeted BB you take *no* damage, if it gets past spell resistance.

With one patch of slime on her she'll be dead from Con damage in 9 rounds on average (d6/round, no save, no spell resistance), without even considering the beating he'll be laying down on her.

Overall, he looks good to me. I wish he had a couple more spell-like abilities that "played well" with his unhallow (and since he doesn't interact with his clergy, it's unlikely he'd have the most useful effects - death ward, protection from fire or dimensional anchor), that he didn't need to breathe, and that oozes immunity to polymorph extended to petrification, but otherwise they did a bang-up job on him.