Hordes of the Abyss.

[Rystil Arden]

The retrievers aren't going to be meleeing him. They're going to be scattering about at their greater movement speed until they need to shoot him with their rays. He will never get a full round of melee, and they don't have Con to lose. On average, they may lose one or two of their number, but Juiblex goes down.

For the Marilith, Blindsight doesn't negate illusions, and it doesn't matter--she just needs to get off the Blade Barrier and leave before he can find her, and this is the case whether he realises the illusion or not. Forgot about the Blade Barrier negation for targetted attacks, but she has a decent chance of hitting him for over 15% of his health each time she tries it. If he somehow finds her and uses his green slime, she just needs to bring along a fiery or freezing sword among her six and burn or freeze it off--she won't take damage.

 

[Uder]

They're going to be scattering about at their greater movement speed.

Since when is 50 greater than 60? He can cast fly, and they can't dispel it.

I really can't see unintelligent solitary constructs using pack tactics anyway.

Try again?

For the Marilith, Blindsight doesn't negate illusions

You can't detect intangibles with blindsight. Project Image creates an intangible image. One of the few weaknesses of blindsight is a strength in this case.

Even if that weren't true, the first thing Juiblex is going to do is disbelieve the illusion, needing a 3.

If he somehow finds her and uses his green slime, she just needs to bring along a fiery or freezing sword among her six and burn or freeze it off--she won't take damage.

Mariliths are know for their tactical genius, right? Relying on weapons against this guy doesn't seem smart. Every time he hits she has to roll for all of her gear. While she's taking that action to scrape or burn off the green slime (likely ruining her weapons) he's able to get on her and dequip her. The round after he slimes her again.

BTW, she only gets 1d4 *random* magic weapons by default...and if she gets choice of gear, I'm assuming he would as well. That opens a whole new can of worms.

Honestly, the Marilith's best tactic is to stay home and convince a Balor to do it. Oh, and of course hope he either wins or dies trying.

 

[Rystil Arden]

He's not going to get into melee range against the Marilith. Just because he can see through the Project Image does not mean that it can't still be used as the source of the Blade Barrier. Mariliths are known for tactical genius, as you said. It would take a blunder for Juiblex to actually find the real Marilith if she uses Project Image correctly. As to the 'intangible' thing--the Blindsight entry does not state this.

[SBLOCK=Blindsight]Some creatures have blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of such senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such sense may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This ability makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures and must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.

The creature usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice creatures within range of its blindsight ability. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature’s description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.

Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures using blindsight.
Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects. [/SBLOCK]


As for the Retrievers, 60 is greater than 50, but it isn't enough to let him keep up with a fully retreating retriever unless he uses Greater Teleport (in which case he gets no attacks) because the Fly spell does not allow running. There is no reason to believe that a Retriever trio cannot be commanded to use just such tactics against Juiblex.

 

[Gold Roger]

Everyone eveluating Jubilex may want to keep in mind that demons may not be particularly loyal, but I guess J could at least count on one hezrou and a huge amount of mindless but loyal oozes. I also maintain that a demon lords control of his layers includes more than smell and temperature (at the very least we don't know how far it amounts).

 

[hong]

Darth Maul could take them all, with Chuck Norris a close second.


Hong "the USS Enterprise wouldn't even make third" Ooi

 

[Psion]

Everyone eveluating Jubilex may want to keep in mind that demons may not be particularly loyal, but I guess J could at least count on one hezrou and a huge amount of mindless but loyal oozes. I also maintain that a demon lords control of his layers includes more than smell and temperature (at the very least we don't know how far it amounts).

He was basing that on what the divine material has to say about powers on their home planes. It IS pretty weak and will receive liberal application of rule 0 IMC.

 

[Gold Roger]

He was basing that on what the divine material has to say about powers on their home planes. It IS pretty weak and will receive liberal application of rule 0 IMC.

What it said about a certain rank, but we don't know if it is ranked in the book and if, where. And, yeah, if that's really true it will be zero'ed by this DM as well.


Anyway, my point on Jubilex of course brings another factor into the whole Demon Prince power debate: Demon Princes have nondemonic servants, be it constructs, cultists, slimes, undead etc. A Balor on the other hand is a solitary force.

 

[JustaPlayer]

Most famous D&D adventure of all time: GDQ1-7. Ends with a party of 10th-14th level wiping out Lolth, Demon Queen of Spiders and Lesser Goddess, on her own plane.

That's, like, the crown jewel of D&D mythology.

I would like to point out that Lolth at the time was "just" the Demon Queen of Spiders, and not a goddess at that time. i.e. she was a demon lord. I would also like to note that there really wasn't some kind of system for creating or measuring relative power levels back then. Heck by 15th level you could beat every monster ever put out. I don't know about you but being able to beat everything there is just doesn't strike me as fun, and could be a major reason the game capped of even then. My thinking is, at 20th level you should not be able to beat everything.

I'm not a dice freaker per se, but I do think that if your story says creature x fights god y and wins, then creature x should reflect that in his stats.

 

[Psion]

I would like to point out that Lolth at the time was "just" the Demon Queen of Spiders, and not a goddess at that time. i.e. she was a demon lord.

Is my memory failing me or did Q1 not have a blurb repeating the standard deity abilities from the 1e DDG?

 

[Shade]

James, I wanted to say, you are one classy guy. I think the weak demon lords were a mistake and a missed opportunity, but collectively we've likely already spent more time ruminating on the nuances of the issue then you ever could have. In spite of all the resulting strife, you've been reasonable and patient through and through. You're a credit to the industry. Thanks.

Ditto. James is one of the shining stars in the industry, and a class act to boot.