Hordes of the Abyss.

[Psion]

May or my not have, I haven't looked at it in a long while, but it is very safe to say she didn't have the kind of stats even close to any being in DDG.

That much I know. But what I am getting at is the "standard divine abilities" that were in the front of the DDG.

(Yeah, her stats weren't that impressive. We punked her...)

 

[Psion]

Not now. That demon lord is I believe CR 23, easily surpassing Orcus and Demogorgon from the current official 3.5 source.

Those are just stats. Just because I play Shackled city doesn't mean that I would choose (and it would have to be a deliberate choice) to use the base stats as-is. And HotA doesn't ask me to. It provides explicit tools to scale them to my pleasure. Quit acting so helpless.

(Now when the Dragon articles come out to double dip on us that, it may be a differnet story.)

So, I'm to beleive that until an article is published, the official take I should be abiding by chages the moment an article is published? Sorry, I think that sort of canon-slavery-mindset is not conducive to good gaming, and I refuse to base my arguments around it.

As an aside, I find this double-dipping snark quite insulting to the author. It's as if you are implying that the rest of the articles had nothing to add of value. Are all ecology articles also "double dipping?" That's ridiculous.

If it makes you feel better, I'll go edit my post to take this into account, as it is totally sidestepping the point. Just because I might use one CR20 demon lord does not mean I am under any obligation to use any other demon lord at CR20. The only reason I would do so would be because it fit the needs of my campaign as conceived. I am not shackled and bound to using all, some, or any of the demon stats without modification as presented.

 

[Uder]

He's not going to get into melee range against the Marilith. Just because he can see through the Project Image does not mean that it can't still be used as the source of the Blade Barrier. Mariliths are known for tactical genius, as you said. It would take a blunder for Juiblex to actually find the real Marilith if she uses Project Image correctly.

Read the spell. The second she loses line of effect to the image, even momentarily, it's gone. She doesn't have the invisibility she needs to take full advantage of the ability. But that's beside the point...

As to the 'intangible' thing--the Blindsight entry does not state this.

You may have to read for comprehension. Project Image is "intangible". What else is intangible? Ethereal creatures. Can creatures with Blindsight detect ethereal creatures? Why not?

As for the Retrievers, 60 is greater than 50, but it isn't enough to let him keep up with a fully retreating retriever unless he uses Greater Teleport (in which case he gets no attacks) because the Fly spell does not allow running. There is no reason to believe that a Retriever trio cannot be commanded to use just such tactics against Juiblex.

That's what retrievers do I guess, run from the thing they've been sent to retrieve.

C'mon, you're completely ignoring the nature of the beast in order to "win" the message-board game?

What leads you to believe retrievers can use pack tactics and receive support from others of their kind? Unintelligent (Int -). Solitary. Y'know, I'm not fond of the metasetting idea, but I'm not all the way over into Rip's "Creature #161289" camp either.

Faced with such an odd metagaming variation of the beastie, and given Juiblex's intelligence, I would assume he would withdraw into a phase door, summon an alkilith, and send it forth in gaseous form to lock those pesky critters down in walls of ice.

 

[JustaPlayer]

That much I know. But what I am getting at is the "standard divine abilities" that were in the front of the DDG.

(Yeah, her stats weren't that impressive. We punked her...)

Yeah, it was sad really, after everything, the culmination just seemed very anti climatic.
If I was to do it as an adventure path today it would be a sweet 1-30 path.
1-10 decent
11-20 Against the giants
21-30 Demon Web

Of course it would still be anti climatic because she would be statted as a CR21 demon.

 

[Psion]

Yeah, it was sad really, after everything, the culmination just seemed very anti climatic.
If I was to do it as an adventure path today it would be a sweet 1-30 path.
1-10 decent
11-20 Against the giants
21-30 Demon Web

Being a drow lubber - and if I was paying heed to the original modules - I'd put giants first.

1-10 (Campaigning of your choice. Or, say, slavelords)
11-15 - Giants
15-25 - Descent
25-30 - Queen of the Demonwebs

Of course it would still be anti climatic because she would be statted as a CR21 demon.

Cute. But no.

I wouldn't be using the DDG statistics either. But there's no reason that I would be compelled to use a CR21 stat set for that. I'd use a stat set appropriate for the campaign.

It's a simple principle, really. Too bad so many experienced gamers don't seem to get it.

 

[JustaPlayer]

So, I'm to beleive that until an article is published, the official take I should be abiding by chages the moment an article is published? Sorry, I think that sort of canon-slavery-mindset is not conducive to good gaming, and I refuse to base my arguments around it.

I guess you have never had that guy in the group, you know him, his name is Rules Lawyer. Well, regardless of how you treat your game, Mr. RL can be very annoying. As a DM, I really don't want to deal with RL because I tweaked Orcus to the power level the authors suggest he should already be at.

Frankly I find it quite insulting that they say, we statted them here but he should really be up hear, you do the work. If I did ALL the work, why the heck would I even buy books with monster in the first place? I can just make my own right. It's for the combo of fluff & stats.

Anyway, I was talking to a friend of mine last night who absolutely hates epic play. He said to me, "You know I hate epic play but damn they should have done the demon lords as epic."

 

[JustaPlayer]

Being a drow lubber - and if I was paying heed to the original modules - I'd put drow first.

Oops you're right, for some reason I typed them in backwards.

I wouldn't be using the DDG statistics either. But there's no reason that I would be compelled to use a CR21 stat set for that. I'd use a stat set appropriate for the campaign.

It's a simple principle, really. Too bad so many experienced gamers don't seem to get it.

No, she wouldn't be a deity as she wasn't in the original. CR21 was just to be cute. But let me asked you, if someone publishe an adventure like that, wouldn't you miff you if the put her at 21?

 

[Psion]

I guess you have never had that guy in the group, you know him, his name is Rules Lawyer. Well, regardless of how you treat your game, Mr. RL can be very annoying. As a DM, I really don't want to deal with RL because I tweaked Orcus to the power level the authors suggest he should already be at.

I think mister RL would not last long in our group. As I said upthread, one thing I won't abide is the attitude that a player is entitled to face or know the stats of particular opponents just because it's in a book. That goes beyond rules-lawyerism and straight on into what might be called Synnibarism.

If I have to explain that:
[sblock]Synnibar was a game that had such lovely rules that basically said "these are the rules, if the dm deviates from them, he is cheating, and your characters get to ignore it and get some lovely consolation prizes."[/sblock]

That said, assuming he had redeeming qualities, I'd point mister RL to the section on scaling demon lords as I see fit.

Anyway, I was talking to a friend of mine last night who absolutely hates epic play. He said to me, "You know I hate epic play but damn they should have done the demon lords as epic."

And to repeat myself, people who don't want epic gaming but want epic demon lords don't need stats for demon lords. Stats that never get used are... well, useless. I said it when DDG came out (now there was a book worth getting worked up over), I'll say it now.

 

[Psion]

Oops you're right, for some reason I typed them in backwards.

That's okay... I put my response in backwards. I'd put GIANTS first. Sigh.

No, she wouldn't be a deity as she wasn't in the original. CR21 was just to be cute.

I caught that.

But let me asked you, if someone publishe an adventure like that, wouldn't you miff you if the put her at 21?

Of course. But you perceive, that would be a situation in which I think the sort of outrage I am seeing here would be justified.

 

[sckeener]

Pretending epic-level play doesn't exist, and the game truly does cap at 20th level, why should you be able to beat everything? Where's the fun in that? If your character can defeat every entity in the universe at 20th level, what's the point, really? Why isn't your character simply granted deity status and be done with it?

If there aren't threats beyond the PC's power, where's the sense of danger?

You can't save everyone no matter how powerful the pc....

Unless the pc is insane, he probably cares about someone or something. There are always ways of making fun in a game besides combat....that is if you can get your hands on the enemy at that level. Personally I think most high level enemies are difficult simply because they can run away to fight another day....