Hordes of the Abyss.

[Gold Roger]

I have so say then like before, you can use any ol' stats that are around that level and take the rest of the fluff from any epic version. The problem as I see it is that this is a place that the epic rules had a place they could shine.

Yes, epic play is the minority but that doesn't mean there should be 0 support. By that analisis there should be no other role play systems as they are the minority.

Whether they are the monority or not, the conversation on these boards suggest that there is enough of a base out there that there should be support. Not asking for much, just a few pages or so maybe up to 10 pages which is the minority of a book.

There should be support. But it shouldn't overshadow the support for the major game/playstyle.

I should have stated I'm not simply interested in stats. I'm interested in the specific stats of the specific demon princes. They are unique after all.

 

[hexgrid]

The problem as I see it is that this is a place that the epic rules had a place they could shine.

This is the crux of the issue, isn't it?

Continuity and plausibility are red herrings, because this can easily be compensated for in each DM's campaign. The real issue is that epic fans were expecting epic support in HotA, but instead feel like the demon lords have been stolen away from them.

 

[Shade]

This is the crux of the issue, isn't it?

Continuity and plausibility are red herrings, because this can easily be compensated for in each DM's campaign. The real issue is that epic fans were expecting epic support in HotA, but instead feel like the demon lords have been stolen away from them.

The continuity and plausibility are far bigger issues for me.

FWIW, the Book of Vile Darkness, which had 'em pegged much higher, never mentions the epic rules (as far as I can tell skimming through it), nor do they have any of the benefits the creatures of ELH possess.

 

[ThirdWizard]

One thing to keep in mind is that a CR 20 creature should use 20% of a level 20 party's resources. A party, especially with some forethought and knowledge of what is to come, can take on a CR much higher than that.

So even a CR 23 creature isn't that hard for a level 20 party to take. Especially if they know they're going to be fighting a demon lord. And, really, who should run into a random demon lord and beat it? You don't happen upon a demon lord, so you're ready with your Outsider bane weapons and demon lord slaying tactics.

Yes, he's going to have lieutenants and servants and mooks all about, and the PCs will be weakened on their way to him, presumably. But, that's still your average end boss encounter, not the culmination of a campaign that killing a demon lord should be. The odds are still in the PCs' favor with this setup.

I think it would be possible to make the top tier demon lords a non-epic CR 28-30 and still have them beatable to a non-epic party bent on killing a demon lord. They'd suffer heavy casualties, but it would be possible and would work better for both camps.

 

[JustaPlayer]

The continuity and plausibility are far bigger issues for me.

FWIW, the Book of Vile Darkness, which had 'em pegged much higher, never mentions the epic rules (as far as I can tell skimming through it), nor do they have any of the benefits the creatures of ELH possess.

Epic is mentioned in the book I think but WotC didn't want to go the route of wanting people to need ELH to play the game. That is pretty fair back then. The only thing is this can't be used as an excuse at this time because you can get the rules for free.

Even if you don't want to play Epic characters and such. Feat's and Epic spells (perfeably new ones) would work well for the beings.

If the CRs were in the 30s you could just as well form planer alliances or something of you want to fight them at level 20.

Ever hear of the alliance of elves and men? At that point you should be able to mobilize huge armies.

Anyway if a Balor is a Balrog, and trust me…. It is. If the balrog is CR20 should Souran be CR19?

 

[gizmo33]

On another issue... well I hate to self-quote. But nobody from the 'other side' of the debate gave a response, and I am really interested to know.

I'm not on the other side of this debate entirely. I agree with you about the Balor vs. Demon Lord issue - mostly. However, I'm not 100% clear that Balors would/should serve Demon Lords in the 3E conception. The Balrog in Tolkien (the literary equivalent to the balor) was a demi-god, and probably comparable to a demon-prince IMC. In original DnD, there were only 6 of them - so your example of comparing the bragging rights of the slayer of Juiblex vs. slayer of a Balor is making some assumptions that wouldn't hold up from that perspective. The slayer of the balor would probably have bragging rights equal to the slayer of Juiblex.

I would think a cap on the powers of a demon lord/prince would be 24/28 if you're using core/non-epic rules and you think that such creatures ought to be challenged by the most powerful mortals (or immortal monks) in the campaign. CR 19 is actually equal to a pair of marilinths or more lesser demons, so I think it's sufficient to rule a horde of lesser creatures - especially considering home-field advantage. I guess it depends on what the DM thinks abyssal demographics ought to be.

 

[Psion]

Epic is mentioned in the book I think but WotC didn't want to go the route of wanting people to need ELH to play the game. That is pretty fair back then. The only thing is this can't be used as an excuse at this time because you can get the rules for free.

I'm not thinking that they sould necessarily avoid using epic elements (after all, if you look at demonomicon, you will see James has a habit of listing epic feats like Dark Speech, then providing alternates), but I don't think that's much of a case in favor of putting epic or psionics in every book*, as not much of the base D&D audience even know what the SRD is.


* - Not that I would mind that... that would be cool.

 

[JustaPlayer]

I'm not thinking that they sould necessarily avoid using epic elements (after all, if you look at demonomicon, you will see James has a habit of listing epic feats like Dark Speech, then providing alternates), but I don't think that's much of a case in favor of putting epic or psionics in every book*, as not much of the base D&D audience even know what the SRD is.

I agree with the statement to a point. If people want psionics there is an old setting they should be on WotCs arse about and thats Dark Sun, which as I recall went to level 30 progession so would also be good for a little epic. No doubt though, this is where psionics would shine.

I understand that epic is used less than Psionics too. But.... would it kill to devote a few pages in a tome such as Hordes?

On another note in 4e I would love for psionics to be in the core books. They have been around since 1e and I'm tired of them being the red headed step child.

 

[gizmo33]

And, really, who should run into a random demon lord and beat it?

Why not any 20th level party? Who keeps the demon lords from taking over the Prime?

Yes, he's going to have lieutenants and servants and mooks all about, and the PCs will be weakened on their way to him, presumably. But, that's still your average end boss encounter, not the culmination of a campaign that killing a demon lord should be. The odds are still in the PCs' favor with this setup.

What setup though? There's too much left open to question here. Sure, if your "end boss encounter" is a 30x30 room in a dungeon, then the demon lord is in trouble. If the party has to slog it's way through dozens of EL 20 encounters, then it's not a sure thing at all (especially if the demon lord just doesn't sit there going "mwahaha" waiting for the PCs to arrive).

There could be some reason, after all, why the demon lord lives in the Abyss and not on the Prime. That reason could be all those other EL 20 encounters of his servants. And even outside of the Abyss, the demon lord would be vulnerable only to fairly unlikely alliances of ultra-high level adventurers.

I think it would be possible to make the top tier demon lords a non-epic CR 28-30 and still have them beatable to a non-epic party bent on killing a demon lord.

Yes, in a 30x30 room on the Prime Material plane. But IMO there are too many variables (and there should be many) if you're designing their abyssal lair (an interesting one). The demon lords could be designed so that a stalemate exists - both sides supreme on their home turf.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Why not any 20th level party? Who keeps the demon lords from taking over the Prime?

I think either you misunderstand or we're in complete disagreement on a fundamental level. A party who isn't expecting to fight a demon lord has no business defeating it. This is so fundamental to my philosophy that I'm not sure how to explain it. Putting demogorgon on a random encounter table and rolling 00 on a d100 sending him after the PCs expecting them to take him down with whatever they've got randomly prepped should result in a TPK.

Why? I guess because he's special and unique. An encounter with a demon lord should never be "Demogorgon jumps out from behind a pillar! Roll initiative." If for some reason a demon lord takes the party by surprise, he should be powerful enough to win. The same generally goes for dragons in D&D. If you run up against a great wyrm red dragon withour prep, you're most likely dead dead dead.

Higher levels simply involve a lot of preparation, be it divination or something more mundane. There are so many options available to PCs at that level that a demon lord shouldn't be something that catches them by surprise. "I had no idea Demogorgon hated me!" just isn't something I would ever want to hear come out of a PC's mouth. Especially followed by "So then we killed him after he ambushed us."

Now, I'm going to hope that my clarification shows that we're in agreement here. If not, what's your position on the matter?

What setup though? There's too much left open to question here. Sure, if your "end boss encounter" is a 30x30 room in a dungeon, then the demon lord is in trouble. If the party has to slog it's way through dozens of EL 20 encounters, then it's not a sure thing at all (especially if the demon lord just doesn't sit there going "mwahaha" waiting for the PCs to arrive).

There could be some reason, after all, why the demon lord lives in the Abyss and not on the Prime. That reason could be all those other EL 20 encounters of his servants. And even outside of the Abyss, the demon lord would be vulnerable only to fairly unlikely alliances of ultra-high level adventurers.

I'm wondering what that has to do with anything I wrote above. I'm in favor of Demogorgon being a freakin' CR 50 Epic level threat capable of devistating cities with a mere glance, and I'm trying to find a compromise with people who think that a group of level 20s should be able to kill hm.

My contention is that a group of level 20s can kill a CR 20 without much fear of death.

So where does a 30x30 foot room come into play here? What the heck does that have to do with anything? A non-epic CR 28 creature is killable by PCs. If upper tier demon lords were placed in that range, then they would still be able to be used by people who want to use them as end bosses, and it would satisfy the people who want them to be much stronger than the Type VI demon.

By the way, by non-epic I mean not taking into consideration epic rules much as the great wyrm red dragon doesn't take into consideration epic rules in its CR. There's really a great difference between a great wyrm red dragon and equivalent CRed creatures in the ELH.

The point is that for 20 levels the PCs have been doing the thing where they fight mooks, lieutentants, and other such minions as they make their way to the BBEG then fight the BBEG in his lair. The BBEG is usually 2-3 CR higher than them, and the PCs prevail and win fame and glory.

Well, the demon lord is 0-3 CR higher than them, has minions, lieutenants, and minions that the PCs have to fight through to get to him and so and and so forth. If he were 8-10 CR higher, though, with proper prepriation the PCs could make it to him and kill him, but they would suffer heavy losses in the final battle, it would be and end all be all for the people who want to kill demon lords, a battle of epic proportions even if the game isn't Epic.

High level PCs can do amazing things. Don't underestemate them.

Yes, in a 30x30 room on the Prime Material plane. But IMO there are too many variables (and there should be many) if you're designing their abyssal lair (an interesting one). The demon lords could be designed so that a stalemate exists - both sides supreme on their home turf.

There's that 30x30 foot room again. Who cares if its 30x30 foot or an endless plain of screaming demons 100 miles deep? I'm talking about the fact that level 20 PCs won't find a CR 23 demon in and of itself as all that difficult. You can make anything with a setup that makes the encounter more difficult. A demon lord should be dangerous on its own and have a layer of horror between it and the PCs.


EDIT: Summary - Placing the CR at 19-23 so that they would be beatable end bosses was unnessary. If that was the goal, I believe they could have been 24-30 and still attained the desired results.