Hordes of the Abyss.

[Psion]

Also; what makes a good demon lord stat block in one campaign fails in another.

I disagree. Thats like saying what makes a good dragon in one campaign fails in another.

Seriously, dude, we all have reasons for our particular preferences. But I think the continued existence of this thread show undeniable proof that what James said is right. If everyone agreed on what made good demon lord stats, we wouldn't be having this debate.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey there!

Did you consider that maybe his editor told him to do it that way? The man signing the paycheck is always the one with the final word. I think James has made his opinion on the matter clear so I see no reason to blame him for it - you may want to send your analysis to the editor of the work.

Well its certainly possible, but it was James I saw on ENWorld trying to defend his position, not his editor.

...and to be honest the excuse of "I was just following orders" doesn't get anyone out of jail.

That said, I'm not attacking James personally. I'm attacking the reasoning behind how the Demon Lords turned out the way they did.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Psion!

Seriously, dude, we all have reasons for our particular preferences. But I think the continued existence of this thread show undeniable proof that what James said is right. If everyone agreed on what made good demon lord stats, we wouldn't be having this debate.

I don't see it as a subjective point at all. Its totally objective, the stats just have to make sense, simple at that.

Beyond that you can have manifestation, avatar and aspect stats taking up very little extra space, which means everybody is happy.

 

[Psion]

Hey Psion!



I don't see it as a subjective point at all. Its totally objective, the stats just have to make sense, simple at that.

Beyond that you can have manifestation, avatar and aspect stats taking up very little extra space, which means everybody is happy.

I don't think done right, 2 extra high-end stat blocks for each demon lord would take up "very little space".

But even if I were to grant you that, you do realize that as is, they had to cut things to fit it into the new painfully constricted 160 page format, right?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Psion!

I don't think done right, 2 extra high-end stat blocks for each demon lord would take up "very little space".

I was talking about one high-end (Manifestation), one low end (Aspect), and I stand by the worst case scenario one extra page per entry (assuming you are using core rulebook font sizes).

I'd rather have 12 Demon Lords done properly than 15 half-baked.

But even if I were to grant you that,

You don't have to grant me anything, I flat out state it as a fact, because thats the way I handle it in my book.

you do realize that as is, they had to cut things to fit it into the new painfully constricted 160 page format, right?

The idea that they had to cut things so they would have the space to reprint/recycle material from other books just makes my brain boggle.

A page restriction which, by itself makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Obviously you have page targets but are they honestly saying that the wheels would fall off WotC if this book had been 176 pages instead of 160!? I find that hard to believe.

 

[BryonD]

Seriously, dude, we all have reasons for our particular preferences. But I think the continued existence of this thread show undeniable proof that what James said is right. If everyone agreed on what made good demon lord stats, we wouldn't be having this debate.

This is certainly true. But I don't believe it resolves the issue at hand.

I think that you could get one hundred different takes on Jubilex from one hundred different people and not one of them would state that Jubilex was less powerful than a standard Balor.

Besides, since everyone keeps saying how easy it is to advance creatures (a true statement), would it not have cast a much wider net to offer something higher up (or no stats at all) and then suggest adding 3 or 4 HD and XYZ special abilities to a Balor or other demon of your choice to create a lower 20s CR Demon Lord? That would offer the kill Orcus at L20 crowd something without messing with the Orcus should be <some big number> badder than a Balor or Solar crowd.

There was the opportunity for win-win here. It was missed. Badly.

 

[jester47]

What would really suck is if FC2 has CR30-42 Arch Devils. THAT would make the FC line unforgivable...

 

[Psion]

There was the opportunity for win-win here. It was missed. Badly.

The win-win scenario was presented, at least the best it could be in the space they had.

It was rejected by those with unreasonable expectations.

 

[JoeGKushner]

What would really suck is if FC2 has CR30-42 Arch Devils. THAT would make the FC line unforgivable...

But entertaining.

Heck, at this rate, maybe I'll have to lie about getting it early and be all outraged.

"And I can't believe the about face they did on the CR of the Arch Devils. I mean, what type of game is then when a Duke can take out a demon prince?"

 

[jester47]

I say we lock the thread at post #666 just for the heck of it...