Hordes of the Abyss.

[Gold Roger]

Prior to this issue I have never heard the slightest hint that "the masses" wanted Demon Lords to be on par with Balors and less powerful than Solars.
I still do not believe that "the masses" wish this to be the case.

I can certainly understand that most games do not go epic and therefore actively providing epic stats would not serve a large number of people. But there are already stats available for CR20 demons. If you want Demon Lords in this range, it is easy to modify the existing CR appropriate demons.

But whether your game stops at level 5, 12, 18, 22, or 50, I just do not believe that Jubilex being inferior to a standard Balor is a good thing or remotely in tune with the wishes of "the masses".

Just that I wasn't arguing for the eventual execution of the principle but the principle that demon lords should be within striking distance of 20th level itself.

The actual power level that we now have is an entirely different story. While I don't have a problem with it (imc demon lord is a purely nominal notion, every demon worth his salt would never bow to any lord, imho), I have no idea if I'm with the masses on that.

 

[Psion]

But whether your game stops at level 5, 12, 18, 22, or 50, I just do not believe that Jubilex being inferior to a standard Balor is a good thing or remotely in tune with the wishes of "the masses".

As I stated to rip earlier, I don't think Jubilex should be weaker than a balor either.

But since modification guidelines are in place, I really see nothing to get annoyed about. I could add the changes in minutes, on a yellow sticky, in my book. Nor do I see this CR as some metasetting assertion of relative capability. It's purely one of mechanical convenience made to serve as many people as practical. I've already seen two excellent scenarios that would support such an arrangement.

 

[cildarith]

Perhaps the Type 6 Dem, er... Balor is the problem here?

In 1E: 8 HD (Edit: and only 6 of them exist)
In 2E: 13 HD (I think)
In 3.0: 13 HD
In 3.5: 20 HD??? Why the power creep?

 

[Uder]

Perhaps the Type 6 Dem, er... Balor is the problem here?

In 1E: 8 HD (Edit: and only 6 of them exist)
In 2E: 13 HD (I think)
In 3.0: 13 HD
In 3.5: 20 HD??? Why the power creep?

No kidding. I'm worried that in the next edition balors will be yet another critter removed from the average DMs arsenal.

In 1E: 8 HD (Edit: and only 6 of them exist)

In my mind, there were more than 6. MMI had flavor text suggesting there were only six, while MMII had flavor text suggesting there were more. As a DM you had to decide which flavor you liked best. What a novel concept.

 

[Ripzerai]

In 3.5: 20 HD??? Why the power creep?

Because they retooled the game to better support play at levels 1-20. In 1e, there were few if any monsters worthy of the attention of a 20th level party. One of the design criteria of 3e was to make it so PCs could more smoothly advance all the way to level 20 (so, for example, PC HD continue increasing). In 3.5, they realized that balors, with only 13 HD, didn't last long enough in combat to use all their interesting abilities. So they redefined them to be higher-level opponents. Now, at last, the game "finishes" at level 20 with a terrible demon caste in a dramatic clash against beings of utter evil.

Doing so set an implicit lower limit to what demon lords should be, as demon lords are the obvious opponents to fight after you're done with balors.

You're right: if they hadn't retooled the balor (and, with it, other fiends, creating a smooth progression of fiend-bashing up to 20th level), most of this debate wouldn't be happening. But they did, for reasons which were pretty sound. And, acknowledging that this has happened, it's silly - even ridiculous - to say that demon lords should also be level 20 opponents.

It's not even primarily about whether or not demon lords can reasonably hold their thrones against balor challengers. It's about putting demon lords where they've always been - above Type VI demons in power.

Do demon princes have bodyguards, allies, armies, and fortresses? Of course they do. But so do balors.

Is it anything to get worked up about? Of course not. Is it anything anyone should get worked up about in defending it? Of course not. It's an issue as indefensible as it is insignificant. It's hypocritical to waste dozens of posts telling people what a minor point it is - when you post that often on the subject, you're implicitly lending it credibility. You're saying that defending it is as big a deal to you as attacking it is to others.

The irony is, I don't think it's that big a deal to anyone. But this is the internet, and message board arguments can swell up in subjective importance.

 

[Gold Roger]

In my mind, there were more than 6. MMI had flavor text suggesting there were only six, while MMII had flavor text suggesting there were more. As a DM you had to decide which flavor you liked best. What a novel concept.

There's also mention that there are 24 Solar but more may exist. At a quick glance the Solar in the 1st ed MM2 is also superior to at least Kostchie and Fraz-Ur'luu in many ways and at the very least their equal . Stronger Solar are obviously no new "crime".

 

[BryonD]

As I stated to rip earlier, I don't think Jubilex should be weaker than a balor either.

But since modification guidelines are in place, I really see nothing to get annoyed about. I could add the changes in minutes, on a yellow sticky, in my book.

And I'm completely with you here.

But, on the other hand, I can have Jubilex in my own notes in minutes WITHOUT buying WotC's book. So that kinda cancel's out of the conversation on the merits of this product.

It is not required that complaints about the book translate to damage to my game.

Nor do I see this CR as some metasetting assertion of relative capability. It's purely one of mechanical convenience made to serve as many people as practical. I've already seen two excellent scenarios that would support such an arrangement.

I simply disagree that it can meet the standards of versimiltude. Could a CR23 demon lord aquire power over many CR20+ demons? Certainly. Could one maintain such a position for years, much less centuries or eons? I don't buy it. And they are asking me to buy this for not one but for ALL the demon lords. All this without the 60HD balor angle. Or even just 25HD balors.

And I still don't see any evidence that this in truth serves as many people as practical.
Suggestions for advancing balors into demon lords would serve everyone who wants low CR demon lords and allow for supporting the higher power ideas of them at the same time. Serving everyone the book currently serves PLUS other who want more seems to be a better capture of "as many people as practical" to me. The way they have done it the ~CR20 crowd has two options and the higher level people have zero official options.

And I also think our ability to advance them is at least partly a red herring. The official power level has been adjusted. Thus, the expectation of future support is pretty well crushed. An no, I'm not claiming any right to that support. But I consider reasonable to express complaint when WotC goes out of their way to re-write not just canon but fundamental mythology expectations inherent to the game, and does so in such a way as to actively exclude a portion the fan base.

Does a Level 20 Thrall of Jubilex even really make sense anymore? Without bending over backward to rationalize it? Do you kill Jubilex and then fight his "thrall" as the climactic encounter???? Or is Jubilex the downhill coast once you're past the "thrall"?

And, honestly, I also think the target audience they are servicing here is, far and away, less likely to care. The people who play higher level are vastly more likely to use demon lords than the people who play lower level. I'm certain that there is some small fraction that is right in the zone for this. But the arguement against supporting the minority over the majority has already been made by those favoring this approach. Of the people who actually use demon lords, I feel quite confident that the clear majority would prefer more powerful demon lords.

I don't think they should change the mechanics of meteor swarm to satisfy the people who play up to L12 if the people playing L20 like it as is. I don't think they should nerf demon lords to satisfy people who don't play anti-demon lords games if the people who do play them like it as is. (Particularly when there are already L20 appropriate demons.)

 

[cildarith]

There's also mention that there are 24 Solar but more may exist. At a quick glance the Solar in the 1st ed MM2 is also superior to at least Kostchie and Fraz-Ur'luu in many ways and at the very least their equal . Stronger Solar are obviously no new "crime".

True enough. The solar (and even the planetar) in 1E were extremely powerful, nearly on par with demon princes and lords, respectively.

Since the advent of 2E (which greatly increased the power of giants, dragons, and some of the demons and devils) there seems to have been a constant "tinkering" with the power levels of this relatively small subset of the creatures of the D&D milieu and while these changes may be well reasoned, the implementation, to my eye, has been done piecemeal and without much real thought to the impact of these changes on the rest of the system or even to each other.

Originally, the more powerful non-unique demons, Nalfeshnee, Marilith, Balor, etc. were roughly equivalent to the most ancient of dragons, while Tiamat and Bahamut were on par with the Demon Lords/Princes and Arch-devils. This parity is now completely out of whack, and I suspect that this is what folks are finding most offensive about the recent changes.

I'm not sure where exactly I come down on this issue; I really like the idea of Demon Lords/Arch-devils being barely within reach of 20th level characters, but the inconsistency this introduces is somewhat annoying as well.

 

[Psion]

And I still don't see any evidence that this in truth serves as many people as practical.

Well, that's their gamble to make... but I don't think they made the decision in ignorance.

And I also think our ability to advance them is at least partly a red herring.

I think that your persistant ignoring the advancement tools is a red herring.

The official power level has been adjusted.

No, it has not.

The official power level is "CR 20(+/-)-infinity". The official power level is wide open. It's obvious that the epic scaling notes are not there to create demogorgon's big brother and orucs' mother.

Recent Demonomicon articles have pegged demon lords at CRs 28-32, and James has stated this is likely to continue. If you want to peg something as official, use that. As is, if you choose to interperet the statistics as some sort of metasetting canon when the content of the flavor text (the real canon) says something different is nothing more than willfully choosing to be annoyed.

 

[Gold Roger]

Hm, a thought:

Everyone keeps talking about Demon Lords having to have power over demons. But is that even true?

Could even a CR90 really succeed in the challenge of herding cats that is controlling demons? Would they even want to do that, or care? If they did, would they still have the time to do anything else? Would they still be CE if they did?

There's a reason for every demon prince having a huge host of nondemonic servants, isn't there? (Kostchie: White dragons and frost giants, Juiblex: Oozes, Grazzt: Lamia & co, Orcus: Undead, Baphomet: Minotaurs, Dagon: Kraken & co, pazurael: harpies & co, demogorgon is the king of weird servant creatures, etc)

Frazz-Urb'loo is the only one of the top of my head without servants, and he's a loner anyway, isn't he?

Really, I'd view a demon prince like a self proclaimed bandit king. The bandit king has his small band, but no real power over any other bandits. But many bandits will use the bandit kings name for their own devices and not every bandit wants to be bandit king. Over the time the name of the bandit king rises into to terrible hights and strikes fear at it's mention. I'd say most demons don't care much about "their lords" and the demon princes care little about "their subjects".

The demon princes aren't leaders. There's no such thing to demons. They are special demons and many of them have taken a special interest in the multiverse outside of the abyss. They are figureheads to the outside, those that care for such prestige, while most demons remain uninterested of views others may have of them. A demon may serve his lord nominally, while in fact he simply chooses to life on a layer that suits him. A vrock on demogorgons layer may invoke his name to "validate" the toll he takes of those passing him, while a summoned Nalfashnee may invoke Orcus' name to strike fear into the hearts of those pesky mortals. But not every powerfull demon seeks a name for himself that others may seek him and identify him as an opponent.

In the end there can be no authority among the embodyments of CE

Gods are driven out of the abyss, not because of the demon lords awesome power, but because the constant harrasment their realms suffer from disrespectfull demons. Of course these demons scream the name of "their lord", who themself stay elusive. The god decides living in abyss is to much hassle and the legacy lives on, that tells of powerfull demon princes...

Canon? Maybe, I know little about planar canon behind what suits the needs of my game, but it certainly sounds right to me.