Hordes of the Abyss.

[Ripzerai]

I say we lock the thread at post #666 just for the heck of it...

Seconded.

 

[JustaPlayer]

The win-win scenario was presented, at least the best it could be in the space they had.

It was rejected by those with unreasonable expectations.

Yeah, like people who want any kind of true epic support. All you unreasonable people. Suck it up.

 

[Staffan]

I've skimmed the thread, and I don't think my question (for someone in charge, obviously) was answered: will the revised CRs for the FF and MM2 demons be uploaded to the website as errata, or is the only way to get them to buy this book?

 

[Uder]

I've skimmed the thread, and I don't think my question (for someone in charge, obviously) was answered: will the revised CRs for the FF and MM2 demons be uploaded to the website as errata, or is the only way to get them to buy this book?

They're right here:

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2859923&postcount=40

 

[Razz]

Yes, that's indeed the rude, snarky and egocentric version of what I said. Lacking the point that I repeatetly say that I sorry for those that like epic gameplay, but think that they have to understand that, as things stand, they are a minority playing more a variant system rather simply advanced levels of D&D. I may even try epic level someday, but as a variant system, not part of the base system.

It's not the stats that interest me. There's more critters out there. It's exactly the mythology that interests me in using these guys.

If I thought I was a minority with my position I'd just suck it up, but as far as I know, the majority of D&D players tops out it's games at 20th level max.

So what you're saying is, we should all not bother purchasing any D&D books that's not covered as "core" or "popular" because they're never going to get the support they deserve.

Why, then, does WotC bother wasting their time with stuff like new classes, Epic Level Handbook, Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic if the stuff is never going to expand? They should concentrate on expanding the core material then, correct?

 

[Razz]

High level PCs can do amazing things. Don't underestemate them.

Tell me about it. I have a player with a Paladin/Fighter/Cavalier at 20th level that can do 300+ damage on a single charge attack with like a +45 or more attack bonus to that charge due to a combination of Paladin spells, special mount abilities and feats, and the Unstoppable Charge ability of the Cavalier PrC. A critical hit would skyrocket that to 450+ damage. The guy can take down a great wyrm red dragon in 2 charges, thanks to his 80 ft. speed phrenic dire wolf mount.

That's just ONE character in the group...there's 3 others that are all pretty powerful in their own right.

 

[BryonD]

The win-win scenario was presented, at least the best it could be in the space they had.

It was rejected by those with unreasonable expectations.

Obviously the key words there are "as best it could be in the space they had".

But I even disagree with that.
The alternative I presented could have covered a range of options in the space that currently is used to present the emasculated demon lords.

 

[Psion]

So what you're saying is, we should all not bother purchasing any D&D books that's not covered as "core" or "popular" because they're never going to get the support they deserve.

Why, then, does WotC bother wasting their time with stuff like new classes, Epic Level Handbook, Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic if the stuff is never going to expand? They should concentrate on expanding the core material then, correct?

Good question. The most likely answer is "because you are going to use it."

That said, I was rather surprised to see the Marshall supported in PHB II. But I don't think there has been an absolute dearth of epic or psionic support. New sourcebooks frequently include new psionic powers and classes even, and new epic feats and class expansions.

If you want support, I do think you are taking your chances with books like Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic, though. They don't quite have the pedigree of some of the other material, and unless there is a lot of fan demand, WotC doesn't have much reason to support it.

I think this is the sort of issue the d20 license was meant to address. Back in the 2e days, they couldn't green light a book publication (or re-publication) unless the brand manager was convinced 5000 copies would sell; it might be more. So niche titles, even commonly requested ones, are often passed by. But you get a smaller publisher with fewer fixed costs for whom a smaller print is practical, and they can do something for it.

Of course, the theory does not quite meet the practice on this on several counts.

 

[Gold Roger]

So what you're saying is, we should all not bother purchasing any D&D books that's not covered as "core" or "popular" because they're never going to get the support they deserve.

Why, then, does WotC bother wasting their time with stuff like new classes, Epic Level Handbook, Magic of Incarnum and Tome of Magic if the stuff is never going to expand? They should concentrate on expanding the core material then, correct?

There's a difference of support and requirement.

For example Mind Flayers are baseline monsters that are basic to the game. They are psionic, yet don't require the psionic rules, though there is an alternative to use them psionic.

Demon Princes are as basic to the "D&D mythology" as Mind flayers. They are epic in scope. Does that mean I should be required to use epic rules if I want to use them. Nope, by precedence it means the basic stats are there for 20 level play and the option of using them with epic is given

The niches shouldn't be ignored, but the priority should lie with the masses.

 

[BryonD]

The niches shouldn't be ignored, but the priority should lie with the masses.

Prior to this issue I have never heard the slightest hint that "the masses" wanted Demon Lords to be on par with Balors and less powerful than Solars.
I still do not believe that "the masses" wish this to be the case.

I can certainly understand that most games do not go epic and therefore actively providing epic stats would not serve a large number of people. But there are already stats available for CR20 demons. If you want Demon Lords in this range, it is easy to modify the existing CR appropriate demons.

But whether your game stops at level 5, 12, 18, 22, or 50, I just do not believe that Jubilex being inferior to a standard Balor is a good thing or remotely in tune with the wishes of "the masses".