Hordes of the Abyss.

[Mirtek]

you will see James has a habit of listing epic feats like Dark Speech, then providing alternates).

Actually Dark Speech is completly non-epic. It's from BoVD and can be taken at app. 6th level (requirements are just base will save of +5 and Int/Cha at least 15).

I don't even think it makes any sense that demonlords take this feat at all, as Dark Speech is supposed to be the powerfull vile language invented by the evil gods and archfiends. The feat is supposed to represent mortals who happened to pick up the ability of smattering a few minor parts of this language and because of these are able to mimic a mere shadow of the power these words have if used by the archfiends and evil gods. That's what the feat text says, so it's actually very strange that the archfiends need to take up a feat just to be able to smatter a few broken words of the language they themselve have created and supposedly mastered in a way that put the feeble effects created by mortals with these feat to shame.

 

[Psion]

Actually Dark Speech is completly non-epic. It's from BoVD

You're right. My bad. My point was that it's fairly trivial in most cases to sprinkle in a little flavor from non-core books, and provide core alternates.

That's what the feat text says, so it's actually very strange that the archfiends need to take up a feat just to be able to smatter a few broken words of the language they themselve have created and supposedly mastered in a way that put the feeble effects created by mortals with these feat to shame.

Eh, whatever. I don't see this as being any different than any other aspect of character generation. If you make a character who was supposed to be a farmer, you spend skill ranks on that profession skill. Feats, skills, etc., represent what you are.

Not that it would hurt my feelings to give the feat to all demon lords as a bonus feat.

 

[Mirtek]

Eh, whatever. I don't see this as being any different than any other aspect of character generation. If you make a character who was supposed to be a farmer, you spend skill ranks on that profession skill. Feats, skills, etc., represent what you are.

Not that it would hurt my feelings to give the feat to all demon lords as a bonus feat.

The problem is that you aren't really able to use Dark Speech with the feat. This feat represents to ability to smatter a few broken words to invoke a few minor powers that pale before the real application of this language.

An archfiend with the feat can't speak Dark Speech.

 

[glass]

Most famous D&D adventure of all time: GDQ1-7. Ends with a party of 10th-14th level wiping out Lolth, Demon Queen of Spiders and Lesser Goddess, on her own plane.

That's, like, the crown jewel of D&D mythology.

14th level 1e character. A very different proposition from 14th (or arguably, even 20th) level 3e characters.


glass.

 

[Razz]

I wonder if the debates would've lessened or heightened were the CR of the Demon Princes, say, CR 50-60? Heh.

 

[JustaPlayer]

I think this thread has pretty much run it's course. Just about everything that could be said has been said. It's time to let this dog lie. There is no need to try to start it from a different angle.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey James!

I'm still looking forward to the book, despite not really liking the direction things have went (with regards the Demon Lords). I don't take issue with the stats themselves (I know you are simply pandering to the mass market).

However, although I understand the reasoning behind such changes, I totally disagree with them. In my eyes they are:

1. Unnecessary (since I'll explain below how to do detail such beings properly).
2. Unwarranted (since demons in the Monster Manual now run the gamut of CR's 1-20, you have non-epic campaigns already catered for).
3. Disrespectful (to both epic gamers and the actual 'spirit' of the monsters themselves).
4. Redundant (You now have the Demon Lords representing the same challenges as Marilith and Balors).
5. Nonsensical (no matter what way you spin it, theres no way you can use those stats to logically explain their positions and longevity).

So consider this an argument, not against the book itself, but on your reasons for doing Demon Lords the way you did.

As the author of the Demon Lord chapter in the book, let me explain the reasoning behind the CR 20–23 versions of these demon lords.

Presenting the demon lords at this CR level was to make them good end-of-the-campaign bad guys for a standard D&D game that goes up to 20th level.

The first question being why?

If a Balor is already CR 20 whats the big whoop-de-doo of having Demon Lords 'x', 'y' and 'z' at CR 19, 20 and 21?

If anything surely its anti-climatic, it cheapens the Demon Lords and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever that such beings could be commanding thousands if not millions of demons or ruling their layers for more than a few weeks before a wandering Balor/Pit Fiend/non-epic PC Party/or Elminster kills and/or supplants one of them.

A CR 30 demon is certainly exciting to look at, but it's not as useful to the average campaign as one that's closer to CR 21.

Okay, but why should these beings be CR 20-21? Do 14th-level PC groups not have enough monsters to fight between the CR 6-22 range that you felt compelled to dumb such beings down. Do Monster Manuals I, II, III and the Fiend Folio starve groups of these levels, no of course not.

Using your 'logic', you could bring in a CR 22 Tiamat with a 'yeah but shes more useful to the average campaign this way'. Despite the fact that she is supposed to represent the queen of evil dragonkind.

Just because something is more useful to more people at a lower CR doesn't mean everything should be de-powered to fit within those parameters. Its just a lame excuse.

If we made them truly Epic... where do we set them?

At about CR 21-30 (Lords), 31-40 (Princes) and 41-60 (Monarchs).

Avatars come in at about half this CR 10-15/16-20/21-30. This way you have the "I want them to be useful for non-epic gamers to use as BBEG's" crowd sorted.

Aspects come in at about half Avatar power. CR 5-7/8-10/11-15. This way even lower level parties can get a taste of fighting Orcus.

Worst case scenario this method adds 1 extra page per Demon Lord entry.

The stats in the Book of Vile Darkness pegged them over a range of CR 19 to CR 30, but what if you're playing a 40th level campaign?

See above.

What if you're playing at a 100th level?

By that stage you will be beyond the Demon Princes and likely battling some cosmic entities.

Just like you don't say, what happens to all the Owlbears when your PCs are 20th-level...nothing happens to them - they are still (CR 4) owlbears. You don't panic and scribble over the owlbear entry in the Monster Manual. You simply use monsters with a more appropriate CR for your current group.

It's too arbitrary to pick some CR between 20 and 100+ as a place to set these guys, since no matter where you peg them, some DMs will find them to be too powerful and others will find them to be not powerful enough.

I disagree. Its about respecting the relative power of the Demon Lords/Princes and making their positions believable.

The HotA Demogorgon may be afraid to walk the 'streets' of Abysm at night for fear of being mugged by a gang of drunken Nalfeshnee.

My personal preference is for demon lords in the CR 25–32 range, but I'd still use the CR 20–23 versions in my game, either as manifestations of the demon lords off lair (my preference) or as the real thing, depending on the needs and theme of the campaign in question.

I have no qualms with everyone having their own preference. I do have qualms with you trying to justify your decisions. How can CR 19 Juiblex be millenia old and command thousands if not millions of demons!? 'It' can't - its as simple as that.

By setting their CRs at the bottom edge of the Epic CR scale (around 21–23), we establish a baseline. For DMs who want the demon lords to be more powerful, check out the start of the demon lord chapter in Hordes of The Abyss. This explains the reasoning for lowering their CR, how to utilize a demon lord in your campaign, and (perhaps most importantly) details how to advance a demon lord and to make it more powerful.

I see it more to do with having the power of the demon lords make sense than making them more powerful for the sake of it.

The HotA Demon Lords, don't make a heck of a lot of sense to me (and judging by this boards reaction - quite a few other people too).

For those who are curious, I more or less designed these advancement rules so that if you advance a demon to about CR 30, he'll end up being about on par with what I've been doing in the Demonomicon articles in Dragon. Sure, it takes a bit more work on the DM's part to advance Demogorgon up to 40 Hit Dice, but it's the best solution we could come up with in order to present a nice range of demon lords. And, all that said, the Hordes incarnations of the demon lords are anything but pushovers for their CRs.

I don't think its good enough, and I can't agree there is a 'nice range' when they all pretty much cover the same CR ground.

As for the worries that non-demon lords are too powerful... remember again that CR is just a number.

...which corresponds to roughly how powerful such beings are. So that when we contrast a Balor to Juiblex we ponder why the weaker one is a planar ruler and why he/she/it has existed for thousands of years without being killed by a wandering Balor, party of 20th-level Heroes, Elminster, a dragon (almost any will do), or a random encounter in the Abyss, etc.

In the Monster Manual II and the Fiend Folio, some of the demon CRs are way out of wack.

Certainly after 3.5 they were.

Compare the Klurichir from the Fiend Folio to the most recent version of the Balor in the 3.5 Monster Manual. The Balor, at CR 20, has more hit points, a better armor class, higher stats, and all around better spell-like abilities and powers than the Klurichir, despite the fact that the Fiend Folio pegs the Klurichir at CR 25. (Both have vorpal attacks, but the Klurichir's other big special attacks: Fear aura and poison, probably won't do much to high-level characters who likely have heroes' feast or similar spells in effect to protect against these attacks.) This basically boils down to the differences in 3.0 and 3.5 design theory; essentially, by the time WotC was working on 3.5, they'd realized that high-level characters are a LOT tougher than they realized. Which is why the demons in the 3.5 Monster Manual are so much tougher than their 3.0 versions (and why the updated demons like the armanite and the gorristro in Hordes of the Abyss were included... they needed to be updated). In any event, Appendix III in Hordes of the Abyss addresses this issue by revising the CRs for the Monster Manual II and Fiend Folio demons. This list puts the balor at the top at CR 20, the molydeus next at CR 19 (although he's a TOUGH CR 19), and the other demons down from there.

Theres an incongruity in the statement that the 3.0 demons needed to be made tougher yet the 3.0 Demon Lords needed to be downgraded. Ironically the 3.0 demons actually now make more sense when juxtaposed with the HotA Demon Lords.

Now you have a situation where demons like the Balor, Marilith and Klurichir are pretty much filling the same role as Orcus, Juiblex and Kostchtchie, which, to me is just a wasted opportunity.

We intend to continue publishing Demonomicons in Dragon, and will continue to provide CR 26–32 level stat blocks for demon lords (along with expanded information about them), but we can only do these at a rate of 3 or so a year. If there's a particular demon lord you can't wait to use in your campaign, grab a copy of Hordes of the Abyss and advance your favorite demon lord on up to whatever CR you need and you're good to go.

I have enjoyed all the Demonomicon articles to date, and found them interesting, so don't see my position as an indictment of your writing, however when it comes to your design of the demon lords I can't help but be disappointed.

 

[Clueless]

Did you consider that maybe his editor told him to do it that way? The man signing the paycheck is always the one with the final word. I think James has made his opinion on the matter clear so I see no reason to blame him for it - you may want to send your analysis to the editor of the work.

 

[Psion]

I wonder if the debates would've lessened or heightened were the CR of the Demon Princes, say, CR 50-60? Heh.

Well, you might have gotten something from me to the tune of "is this the DDG all over again..."

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

Bringing up the advancement rules for demons (such as those 60-HD balors) is an excellent reason NOT to peg down the demon lords at static CR or power levels. Although I'd assume that 60-HD balors are rare, the Monster Manual infers that they do exist, so it makes sense that the demon lords should be beyond such monsters. This is, in my view, an argument that demon lords shouldn't have stat blocks at all.

Totally wrong.

You simply tie Balor (or any type of demon for that matter) advancement into the hierarchy itself. Therefore a 21-30 HD Balor would be a Demon Lord, a 31-40 HD Balor would be a Demon Prince and so forth.

Its possible that some of the existing Demon Lords are in fact advanced Demons that have garnered power beyond mere Hit Dice' as they advanced. Pazuzu could be an advanced Vrock, Orcus could be an advanced Nalfeshnee etc. The more power they gain the more the Abyss itself would corrupt and mutate them into something different.

Also; what makes a good demon lord stat block in one campaign fails in another.

I disagree. Thats like saying what makes a good dragon in one campaign fails in another.

In the Forgotten Realms, there are numerous NPCs and mosnters with Epic CR scores; in this campaign, it makes sense to have the demon lords be around CR 30 or higher. In Eberron, where there aren't as many high or epic-level creatures running around (yet), demon lords at the CRs listed in Fiendish Codex might be the way to go. In Greyhawk, they should probably fall somewhere between these two extremes.

You only face problems like that when you design the Demon Lords to all cover the same small patch of CR's. Which, unfortunately, is exactly what you did.

Whereas if you design them to cover a larger spectrum of CR's you never face these issues because the Eberrron people can fight Juiblex, Kostchtchie, the Greyhawk heroes can battle with Baphomet and Yeenoghu, and the top Realms people can pit themselves against Orcus and Demogorgon.

We could have included stats for all three power levels for all 14 demon lords, but that would have taken up a LOT more room. Since space was such an issue in this book, we had to choose which version of a demon lord's stats to present.

I estimate that it would have taken 1 extra page (per Demon Lord) to detail the Demon lords manifestation, their avatar and their aspect, with no extra art necessary.

Essentially, demon lords have an infinite advancement. If there are 60 Hit Die balors in your campaign world and you want the demon lords to be able to push them around, by all means advance them all by 60 hit dice as well (which basically increases their CR scores by 60 as well, although at this point the concept of CR kind of becomes meaningless, I think).

Thats because the official Encounter Level rules are rubbish, and start to disintigrate at epic levels.

Once someone at WotC wakes up about it, they will realise that the equation ECL x2 = EL +4 (and by extension ECL x1.5 = EL +2) works at any level.

For those who wish to place demon lords on the same footing as deities (which makes a LOT of sense, as they do control vast, often infinite, regions of the multiverse),

Of course it makes a lot of sense, thats how you should have done it in the first place.

Leave the actual demon lords themselves as creatures that mortals cannot hope to face in combat and survive.

By mortal I presume you mean non-epic mortal.

No matter how you want to use demon lords in your campaign, remember that the sections about each demon lord's appearance, personality, goals, and tactics should be useful to you; this information exists apart from their stats. And of course, Chapter Five of the book gives you a LOT more information about many of them as well (in the context of the various Abyssal layers they control).

Absolutely, thats why I am buying it.

In any event, fans of the Adventure Paths we've been doing in Dungeon who are nervous about how the demon lords will be handled in the latter adventures in Savage Tide (our third Adventure Path, scheduled to start in issue #139) needn't worry about demon lords being used simply as monsters to fight (or even being creatures you can defeat).

Saying things like that is only going to make me nervous about how the Demon Lords will be handled.