Hordes of the Abyss.

[BryonD]

Well, that's their gamble to make... but I don't think they made the decision in ignorance.

ok

I think that your persistant ignoring the advancement tools is a red herring.

hmm, that would be hard to do since I am not ignoring it. (though you seem to have completely ignored several of my points)

No, it has not.

Yes, it has.

The official power level is "CR 20+/- - infinity". The official power level is wide open.

Recent Demonomicon articles have pegged demon lords at CRs 28-32, and James has stated this is likely to continue. If you want to peg something as official, use that. As is, if you choose to interperet the statistics as some sort of metasetting canon when the content of the flavor text (the real canon) is nothing more than willfully choosing to be annoyed.

Care to give me an over/under on the time until the next WoTC (not Pazio) product that will support a power level for demon lords beyond the default presented here? How much cash are you willing to lose to me? I certainly hope they come to an understanding that they dropped the ball here and fix it. But barring that unlikely development, the official demon lord power level stops at ~CR23. A 1/3 page guide on how to turn up the volume in your home game does not lead to the conclusion that WotC will support bigger, badder versions of Orcus.

I really don't care about canon at all. I tried to express that this goes beyond that in my prior post. These entities are power benchmarks that have spanned the history of D&D. You can completely re-write canon and not change anything in power levels. This is all about setting the bar.

 

[Erik Mona]

Care to give me an over/under on the time until the next WoTC (not Pazio) product that will support a power level for demon lords beyond the default presented here?

Dungeon and Dragon magazines are officially licensed products that go through a rigorous approval process. Their contents are 100% official D&D.

Just sayin'.

--Erik

 

[Psion]

Care to give me an over/under on the time until the next WoTC (not Pazio)

Omitting Paizo, eh? I supposed you'd ask me if I wanted to split my tens in blackjack, too?

I don't think that it's safe to ignore Demonomicon any more than it's safe to ingore the scaling. If you go on chopping out every reference or tool that will make the game in the image you want it, I really don't have any sympathy for you if you are left with a game you don't want.

But lets be serious here. People who are serious planes/demon fans are not going to be chucking their dragons issues with the demonomicons in the trash. They are going to be on the top shelf. Your constructed stacked-deck wager has no real bearing on the issue at hand.

product that will support a power level for demon lords beyond the default presented here?

What is "supports" supposed to mean in this context? Because from what I see, it "supports" any power level from the base around 20 to... as far as you want to extend it.

Edit: But really. I am trying to express why I think this is a good thing, but it just keeps escalating. I think those who have ears have heard. I really don't want to make this personal, and from the tone of you last post, it sounds like it's headed that way.

Perhaps we could just agree to disagree? I think you are missing out, but I can't make you like it.

As for me, after the travesty that was DDG, I feel that the actual-play oriented nature of this book is a good thing.

 

[Zoatebix]

waaay off topic

"You had me at Molydeus."

- Psion "Show me the demons, baby" Ooi

Whoa! I though Psion's last name was Kohler! Are he and Hong long lost brothers or is there something even stranger afoot?

 

[Psion]

Whoa! I though Psion's last name was Kohler! Are he and Hong long lost brothers or is there something even stranger afoot?

Just a wierd in-joke "wink wink" sort of thing. Don't mind me.

Edit: Though some Aussies tell me there is a published economics reporter by my name in Oz. Maybe in some parallel dimension...

 

[Garnfellow]

On a somewhat different tanget, all this Abyssal talk got me to pull out my copy of Green Ronin's Book of Fiends and take another look at the Armies of the Abyss section. I haven't done much planar stuff for a while, so that book has just been sitting on my shelf for quite a while.

Holy crap, I had forgetten just how much deeply cool stuff is in that book. Just some sick, fantastic, and fantastically sick ideas all through that section. The whole qlippoth backstory is fiendishly inspired. I suspect Hordes of the Abyss and the Book of Fiends, side by side, will make a demonic goulash of great and terrible power. I can't wait.

 

[Ripzerai]

Just some sick, fantastic, and fantastically sick ideas all through that section.

I agree.

 

[Storyteller01]

I like having the Lords at a power level that actually allows them to be defeated by players in a normal (as in non-epic superpowered) game. I doubt my players would ever meet those guys otherwise, so I welcome that change.

Guess this is my story arc predelictions kicking in, but if these guys are supposed to be constant icns of evil, I don't want them defeated ion a normal game. They rule layers of dark realms, ruling millions of critters that make the typical player look like an picnic ant in need squashing. PLayers shouldn't stand a chance against them unless the campaign is geared in that direction.

 

[Seeten]

My effort to help the thread hit 666.

 

[JustaPlayer]

I think that your persistant ignoring the advancement tools is a red herring.

Personally I find the few lines giving quite insulting. Increase HD, Skills, Feats, make powers. It doesn't take even a lawn mower mechanic to figure this out.

How about some mechanical examples of some powers you might add to a CR35 or above demon lord. Hell, give an example with a new epic spell or two.

With these beings here and the acknowledgement by the authors that they think these beings should be epic it's beyond insulting.

I haven't seen the book but I'm sure a spell or two could have been cut here, a dozen or so feets there and come up with 3-5 pages of material for epic use.

Who really needs just another feat? I love the suckers but there are really only so many out of the billion or so in print that I'll ever be able to use in my life time. Same goes with spells, heck they just released a spell compendium.