Hordes of the Abyss.

[JustaPlayer]

Thoughts on Epic. Are there any real numbers that Wizards has on the amount of players out there play epic. 1%? 2%? If it's 2%, would it really be a crime to insert maybe 2% or 3 pages of epic material in a book such ast this? I'm not asking for epic support in every product but certainly a couple pages in a book here or there isn't going to destroy the buy factor of a book for your base 1-20 level players.

 

[megamania]

My effort to help the thread hit 666.

Should we time it for Tuesday 6/06/06

 

[Nightfall]

Or at least get it closer.

 

[Delta]

Dungeon and Dragon magazines are officially licensed products that go through a rigorous approval process. Their contents are 100% official D&D. Just sayin'.

Erik, I love your work and the support to Greyhawk you've given over the years. However, this is simply nonsensical.

So Demogorgon is officially CR 22 and officially CR 30 and officially up to the DM to decide for his campaign? Normally, I understand the word "official" to mean "conforming to set usage, procedure, or discipline" (Meriam-Webster's). What does "official" even mean when used in this way (other than as marketing talisman)?

 

[Aus_Snow]

some Aussies tell me there is a published economics reporter by my name in Oz.

Huh. Thought I saw you on TV just the other day.

 

[Mouseferatu]

So Demogorgon is officially CR 22 and officially CR 30 and officially up to the DM to decide for his campaign? Normally, I understand the word "official" to mean "conforming to set usage, procedure, or discipline" (Meriam-Webster's). What does "official" even mean when used in this way (other than as marketing talisman)?

It means "recognized by WotC as a D&D product." Any other meaning, honestly, is one the fans put on it.

Yes, Demogorgon is officially CR 22 and CR 30 and up for the DM to decide. This whole argument is based on the notion that something in the game can be truly X, and anything that's not X--even if technically allowable by a sub-rule--isn't "official."

Demogorgon is a demon prince. He's as powerful as you want to make him. WotC (partially through Paizo) has provided, or will provide, multiple different versions of him. There is no Aristotelien ideal of D&D in which Demogorgon's "real" CR is given. His CR is whatever the DM wants it to be, and the various official D&D sources have provided for multiple possibilities.

IOW, don't consider the CR 23 Demogorgon the "real" one. Consider it the bare minimum that he should likely be, with the advancement rules--or the other sources, like the BoVD or the hypothetical future Dragon article--representing possible other iterations.

 

[catsclaw227]

Demogorgon is a demon prince. He's as powerful as you want to make him. WotC (partially through Paizo) has provided, or will provide, multiple different versions of him. There is no Aristotelien ideal of D&D in which Demogorgon's "real" CR is given. His CR is whatever the DM wants it to be, and the various official D&D sources have provided for multiple possibilities.

This is my feeling as well. All "official" sources are correct and I believe this kind of diversity is intentional - to cater to the varied GMs and players of D&D. I feel that wildly contradictory fluff is more damaging to the canon of the game that stats. I am even OK with hazy planar and creation theories, but game statistics that vary from source to source are not necessarily trumping each other. Stats seem to be the one thing that can vary from game to game and still be D&D. Low Level games, High Level games, Epic games -- all are D&D. And GMs that house rule various aspects -- still D&D.

Varied stats are simply different ways of looking at the same element of the game for GMs and players that have varied tastes in their games' power levels.

 

[orangefruitbat]

In the Eternal Champion novels by Michael Moorck, the power of the Lords of Chaos and Law varied considerably from world to world. In some places, Arioch wa the big bad, and others, was much weaker than the other lords of chaos.

Why should the DnD embodiments of chaos be static either?

Yes, Demogorgon is officially CR 22 and CR 30 and up for the DM to decide. This whole argument is based on the notion that something in the game can be truly X, and anything that's not X--even if technically allowable by a sub-rule--isn't "official."

 

[Mirtek]

I think that your persistant ignoring the advancement tools is a red herring.

And I think that claiming that these tools are anything new or special at all. Presenting them as a solution or even a selling point is bogus.

Every single creature in every single book in 3.X was scaleable and could be advanced. The tools are in the PHD and MM. Claiming that these is some new special otions for the demonlords is just wrong, and the 1/3 page in FC1 just seems like a filler.

See MM? Great, I would have never thought of that myself.

How to calculate CR/SR/CL? Well, that's handy but also nothing that really justifies claiming to be something new to make scalebale demonlords, could be done just as well without this clues. Also these clues aren't really the best. 1 HD = 1 CR? Will quickly make them too weak for their CR. Same with the CL progressing. Making it 1 for every 2 HD doesn't make the abilities overpowered, it will make them useless, as they will quickly become unable to beat any SR at all (not even their own).

+2 ability points for every 5 HD? Why? What about the +1 for every 4 HD that's standard in D&D and followed by every single creature? Seems a little like "hm, we just need annother point, any point" and also important: Is this supposed to replace the +1 every 4 HD or to be added on top on this?

All in all: The demonlords are not in the least more or less scaleable than any other D&D creature in any other D&D supplemt. A goblin in MM or Elminster in FRCS can be scaled just as well as these demonlords. It's no "new solution" to the CR argument it's just a hint toward something that is already there since the beginning and the try to make it look like something new created for this book

 

[Psion]

And I think that claiming that these tools are anything new or special at all.

Then why all the teeth gnashing when you know you have total control over their power?

Of course why has already been spelled out by Ari:

It means "recognized by WotC as a D&D product." Any other meaning, honestly, is one the fans put on it.

You've decided that any set of stats in print represents some statement by the authors about the "normative definition" of the demon lords power. I can't help but feel that those who are fundamentally unhappy on this point are so because they are attaching their own significance here.

I can't stop you from doing so. But I think it unwise to do so.

Every single creature in every single book in 3.X was scaleable and could be advanced.

Of course. Ignoring that the advancement notes go beyond the MM in discussing special abilities and raising ability. But you are missing a fundamental point here that I keep hammering on. Unlike most creatures in the MM, Demon lords are unique creatures. The mere existence of these rules should show that the base statistics should not be taken as an "officially endorsed sole power level" of the demon lords, as their power level is explicitly intented to be scaled to the GMs needs. The authors have further clarified that pegging the power of the demon lords was not their intent. Yet you still insist that is what it represents.