Hordes of the Abyss.

[Gold Roger]

I would like to point out that Lolth at the time was "just" the Demon Queen of Spiders, and not a goddess at that time. i.e. she was a demon lord. I would also like to note that there really wasn't some kind of system for creating or measuring relative power levels back then. Heck by 15th level you could beat every monster ever put out. I don't know about you but being able to beat everything there is just doesn't strike me as fun, and could be a major reason the game capped of even then. My thinking is, at 20th level you should not be able to beat everything.

Considering that the game caps out at lvl 20 for so many people tells me that by then it should very well be possible to beat everything that should be beatable at that level. Sadly (and I mean that in honest) that damages the playstyle of those that prefer epic play, but it is quite a minority. Why should a minority drag everyone else along.

 

[Shade]

Darth Maul could take them all, with Chuck Norris a close second.

Chuck Norris already took them. Jubi used to be Vin Diesel, before a single roundhouse kick oozified him.

Chuck Norris's beard rules all of the prime numbered planes of the Abyss.

 

[Mirtek]

Is my memory failing me or did Q1 not have a blurb repeating the standard deity abilities from the 1e DDG?

IIRC QotDWP was released just prior to the first DDG grating the archfiends their lesser god status. Otherweise Lotlh would have had 132 hp instead 66

 

[Shade]

Considering that the game caps out at lvl 20 for so many people tells me that by then it should very well be possible to beat everything that should be beatable at that level. Sadly (and I mean that in honest) that damages the playstyle of those that prefer epic play, but it is quite a minority. Why should a minority drag everyone else along.

Pretending epic-level play doesn't exist, and the game truly does cap at 20th level, why should you be able to beat everything? Where's the fun in that? If your character can defeat every entity in the universe at 20th level, what's the point, really? Why isn't your character simply granted deity status and be done with it?

If there aren't threats beyond the PC's power, where's the sense of danger?

 

[Psion]

Pretending epic-level play doesn't exist, and the game truly does cap at 20th level, why should you be able to beat everything?

Because someone wants something different out of gaming than you.

That said, I wouldn't precisely assume that those who want to stop at 20 are the sorts of folks who want to defeat everything. That's another mischaracterization or failure to comprehend those who don't play your way.

One demon lord is not everything. Shackled city features a 1-20 quest culminating in defeating a demon lord. But that's not everything. The same party would get their posteriors handed them by Baphomet or Pazuzu. And if you think Shackled City is absent a sense of danger, I know a few threads I could show you that might convince you otherwise.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Most famous D&D adventure of all time: GDQ1-7. Ends with a party of 10th-14th level wiping out Lolth, Demon Queen of Spiders and Lesser Goddess, on her own plane.

That's, like, the crown jewel of D&D mythology.

Little Lolth wasn't quite a goddess back then. Just some punk with -10 AC and 66 hit points.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Shackled city features a 1-20 quest culminating in defeating a demon lord. But that's not everything. The same party would get their posteriors handed them by demogorgon or orcus..

Not now. That demon lord is I believe CR 23, easily surpassing Orcus and Demogorgon from the current official 3.5 source. (Now when the Dragon articles come out to double dip on us that, it may be a differnet story.)

 

[Shade]

Because someone wants something different out of gaming than you.

That said, I wouldn't precisely assume that those who want to stop at 20 are the sorts of folks who want to defeat everything. That's another mischaracterization or failure to comprehend those who don't play your way.

Psion, you've got to stop taking my quotes out of context.

Once again, I was replying to Gold Roger, who implied that you should be able to beat everything at 20th level. I never said anything indicating that I think that all folks who stop at 20th level feel this way.

 

[JustaPlayer]

Is my memory failing me or did Q1 not have a blurb repeating the standard deity abilities from the 1e DDG?

May or my not have, I haven't looked at it in a long while, but it is very safe to say she didn't have the kind of stats even close to any being in DDG.

 

[JustaPlayer]

Considering that the game caps out at lvl 20 for so many people tells me that by then it should very well be possible to beat everything that should be beatable at that level. Sadly (and I mean that in honest) that damages the playstyle of those that prefer epic play, but it is quite a minority. Why should a minority drag everyone else along.

Leaving epic out of this. I'm sorry but I don't buy D&D as some kind of video game where you can beat everything sorry. It's a fantasy World, not meatal gear or mario v10.7.