Hordes of the Abyss.

[DaveMage]

If you want underpowered demon lords, then use their "Aspect" as something to fight.

I thought the lords' CRs were well set in the BoVD. I was hoping the new book would update the stats to 3.5, but never thought it would nerf the demon lords.

That is so wrong!

 

[Sammael]

The weakening of demon lords is criminal.

Reuse of BoVD Orcus art is criminal as well.

Interest--

EDIT: Hey Joe, i know you hate fluff, but what is the fluff:crunch ratio in the book? Do the stats take up so much space as to overshadow the rest of the book (a la D&DG), or are they a relatively minor part of the book (20 pages or less)?

 

[DaveMage]

However...
CR 21 does seem a little low - if 2 Balors can kill it is it really a lord?

Exactly! Each Demon Lord's lieutenants would turn on him so fast that there wouldn't be any demon lords!

 

[Gold Roger]

Is there a passage that states that those are the stats are for the demon lords outside of their domain?

It certainly would make sense.

For me personaly the choice of lower CR demon lords is a good one. There's no way I'd ever play above level 20. But I might like to end a campaign with confronting a demon lord (outside of his domain). For me defeating a demon lord isn't about fighting a monster with big-o-stats at level 25. It's about getting them out of their domain, defeat the monster with big-o-stats at level 20 and make sure it doesn't return (most likely finding a way to imprison it's soul after defeating it, so it can't return home).

Leaving behind the notion of lower power demon lords, which is propably a matter of choice, some reused art isn't really a reason to damn the book.

There's still the descriptions of many layers, that we've seen are propably excellent and lots of new demons and stuff. So quickly mister JoeGKushner, give us some more info.

 

[DaveMage]

Leaving behind the notion of lower power demon lords, which is propably a matter of choice, some reused art isn't really a reason to damn the book.

It's a book about fiends - of course we have to damn the book!

 

[Sammael]

Hey, I am an archdevil. Damnation is my line of business.

 

[Quasqueton]

Exactly! Each Demon Lord's lieutenants would turn on him so fast that there wouldn't be any demon lords!

So the demon lords must carefully play politics to keep their minions in line, just as a human lord has to. Makes sense to me. Orcus keeps his minions happy (or fearful), so that if one were to suggest to another, "Hey, you know, you and I together could easily kill the Master," the other would turn him in to Orcus. The traitor would be destroyed, the snitch would be rewarded, and Orcus retains his position.

Hasn't it been stated many times, in many sources, that the Lower Lords keep their power as much through guile as strength?

Quasqueton

 

[JoeGKushner]

The weakening of demon lords is criminal.

Reuse of BoVD Orcus art is criminal as well.

Interest--

EDIT: Hey Joe, i know you hate fluff, but what is the fluff:crunch ratio in the book? Do the stats take up so much space as to overshadow the rest of the book (a la D&DG), or are they a relatively minor part of the book (20 pages or less)?

It's not that I hate fluff. I loved Ed Greenwood's Nine Hells for example.

On the other hand...

1. I've played a long time. Hell, just mentioning Ed Greenwood's articles shows a lot of 'historical' distance in terms of RPGing.

2. My opinion on what's well written and what's not vary tremendously from others.

At the moment, I couldn't give you a fluff/crunch ratio because I don't have it with me. I was writing up my review for PHB 2 (kinda love/hate thing going there) and had the Dragon mag with zuggy in it and looked at how she is in the Abyss book. Wasn't too happy. Looked at the starting section for demon lords and got the explanation.

I'll be reading this one over the weekend and posting more thoughts on it as I go along. Lots of options for GMs to make demons more interesting but for me...

1. Dragon has done a fantastic job of this including Seven Deadly Sins, and articles on how to use demons for different areas.

2. Role Aids did a great line of demon monster books and two fairly large source books for it's time.

3. Planescape did some fantastic stuff for Demons.

Off the top of my head, does anyone know what the name of the demon that balor's were supposed to fear? The one that keept people in the Blood War when they deserted? Was it the wolf headed thing with the snake head? If so, he also got nerfed to a CR 19.

 

[Psion]

Off the top of my head, does anyone know what the name of the demon that balor's were supposed to fear? The one that keept people in the Blood War when they deserted? Was it the wolf headed thing with the snake head? If so, he also got nerfed to a CR 19.

Molydeus. Sounds like.

 

[Gold Roger]

Off the top of my head, does anyone know what the name of the demon that balor's were supposed to fear? The one that keept people in the Blood War when they deserted? Was it the wolf headed thing with the snake head? If so, he also got nerfed to a CR 19.

Molydeus.

Well, if I was a backstabbing incarnation of evil I'd fear a creature of my kind that is only slightly weaker. Plus, they may have a paper-scissor relationship. Again, this may tick of purists, epic level fans and demons-must-be-awesomists (which are all fine stances) it works to my advantage. I've simply got no use for super high CR badies. They are still quite awesome in general context, but usable for average Joe gamer.