Horizon Walker's Terrain Dominance as viable main strategy

[BBQLord]

How useful is this prestige class ability as a main build focus?

While some (necrotizing) threads are already dedicated the PF horizon walker prestige class (like here) I am left wondering if a HW would be very viable if you aren't sure in what terrain you'll be liable to be travelling (or are travelling through a lot of different terrains).

From a combat perspective, most of the 'power' of the HW lies within his Terrain Dominance ability. However, the more you wish to benefit from TD the more you have to invest in it. In the end (lvls 3, 6 and 9) you can have a total of 3 terrains you can actually dominate.

What does this mean?

The way I'm getting it:
Creatures with an environment entry of "Any" you get for free, which is awesome (250+).
Forest and Underground terrains seem to have the most natives (200+).
Mountains, Swamps and Plains do alright (100+).
Water, Desert, Urban, Jungle and Cold seem like jokes (54/40/15/5/5)

Does this mean you should go with TD Forest, Underground and Mountains? If you do so, how much benefit would you gain and how much benefits would you lose when outside those terrains if one would compare Rogue6/HW10 vs. Rogue 16?

 

[Salthorae]

That all really depends on what you're trying to do/get from HW.

If all you want is combat bonuses, then yes those are your best bets for Terrains and you will crush creatures from those terrains without having to deal with pesky flanking as a Rogue would do.

For my money I would go HW for different reasons and I would be taking Astral Terrain for Dim Door 3+ times/day, Plane of Air for 3+ Fly spells/day, and depending on the campaign one of the other ones that grants an SLA like Jungle... maybe I would go with the Water and Plane of Water to get Swim Speed and Freedom of Movement in water, but you could just start as an aquatic character for those...

 

[BBQLord]

Well, I was thinking a low-magic, if not mundane, youngster with the gift of curiosity. His eyes filled with wonder and his head with dreams of places just over the horizon. He suspects he's looking for something, some where, but doesn't know what or where or why.

In the party he's servile, awed by those he's lucky enough to call companions, and more skilled than he (and maybe even they) would give him credit for.

In short, a Weak But Skilled Badass Normal out to see the world.

This requires a high number of skill points and the ability to be effective through training and insight, rather than magic and powers. I remain unsure of how to accomplish this. I really like the idea of a HW that has learned to master entire aspects of the world, and fighting creatures within those aspects, but am unsure if this wouldn't just hamper his ability to be useful enough to be actually taken along for the adventure.


EDIT:
Does anyone have any suggestions for a build that could reflect the above character well, yet also allowed him to contribute to combat?
Preferably by use of the horizon walker prestige class but if you know of anything else, I'm all ears.

 

[Salthorae]

You could also (for a small price) go with the official Pathfinder RPG Spell-less Ranger class that adds Sneak-Attack against Favored Enemies/Favored Terrain and some Rogue talent like stuff.

You can get it here in PDF for a few bucks and it, along with HW might fit the bill for the character you're trying to play.

No Magic, high skills, good at peering over the next horizon...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

How useful is this prestige class ability as a main build focus?

While some (necrotizing) threads are already dedicated the PF horizon walker prestige class (like here) I am left wondering if a HW would be very viable if you aren't sure in what terrain you'll be liable to be travelling (or are travelling through a lot of different terrains).

From a combat perspective, most of the 'power' of the HW lies within his Terrain Dominance ability. However, the more you wish to benefit from TD the more you have to invest in it. In the end (lvls 3, 6 and 9) you can have a total of 3 terrains you can actually dominate.

What does this mean?

The way I'm getting it:
Creatures with an environment entry of "Any" you get for free, which is awesome (250+).
Forest and Underground terrains seem to have the most natives (200+).
Mountains, Swamps and Plains do alright (100+).
Water, Desert, Urban, Jungle and Cold seem like jokes (54/40/15/5/5)

Does this mean you should go with TD Forest, Underground and Mountains? If you do so, how much benefit would you gain and how much benefits would you lose when outside those terrains if one would compare Rogue6/HW10 vs. Rogue 16?

Wow, someone actually read my thread! I never even updated with the complete lack of interest.

As I said there, you may be a Master of All Lands, but you only kick ass in those 1-3. HW is a hyper-specialized class, possibly as specialized as noncasters can get. When dominance applies, even without trying to optimize your bonus at all, it just utterly dwarfs
things like favored enemy or weapon training. When it doesn't apply...there go all your class features! Whoosh! I'd dare say a HW build intending to go to level 10 and make it their main thing, in a game with a lot of terrain variance, is weaker than a rogue in a game with mostly SA-immune monsters.

That said, check with your DM. Maybe the camapgin won't be that varied. I mean, it's the same deal as favored enemy in a game where you don't encounter your favored enemy much. Except in the HW's case, he's traded out ranger spell casting, some skill points, and even a bunch of high level class features just to have a stronger favored enemy, so it pinches him harder when it doesn't apply.

Also, HW requires BAB +6 to enter, so Rogue 8. I still think Ranger 3 / Rogue 4 is the best entry, with whatever archetypes you prefer.

Well, I was thinking a low-magic, if not mundane, youngster with the gift of curiosity. His eyes filled with wonder and his head with dreams of places just over the horizon. He suspects he's looking for something, some where, but doesn't know what or where or why.

In the party he's servile, awed by those he's lucky enough to call companions, and more skilled than he (and maybe even they) would give him credit for.

In short, a Weak But Skilled Badass Normal out to see the world.

This requires a high number of skill points and the ability to be effective through training and insight, rather than magic and powers. I remain unsure of how to accomplish this. I really like the idea of a HW that has learned to master entire aspects of the world, and fighting creatures within those aspects, but am unsure if this wouldn't just hamper his ability to be useful enough to be actually taken along for the adventure.


EDIT:
Does anyone have any suggestions for a build that could reflect the above character well, yet also allowed him to contribute to combat?
Preferably by use of the horizon walker prestige class but if you know of anything else, I'm all ears.

It's tough in D&D. The "skillled" in weak and skilled is usually magic, and if you're weaker than the other non-casters, then you're just sort of inferior, combat-wise. All of the primary spellcasting classes are right out, including Bard. Paladin is too "strong" in vibe, what with all the armor, Ranger has some casting but it's very small. Fighter, Monk, and Rogue are the other options for base class. Barbarian would be, but raging doesn't seem like it jives with what you want, it's just too brash.

HW could work, it's just that the difference in combat effectiveness between when you get your TD bonuses and don't will be pretty impossible to ignore. And you have no real control over when you use them. You're not applying your skill when needed, you're using your specialized knowledge when the opportunity presents itself, not quite the same thing.

The fluff parts you mentioned could be added to just about any character, I think. Doesn't have to be a HW to want to explore the world.

What books can you use? If you have access to Ultimate Combat... My first instinct is to recommend some combo of Master of Many Styles (and possibly Sohei as well) Monk, Unarmed Fighter, Inquisitor, and prestige class of your choice. I have a half-baked build idea I was kicking around earlier, utilizing Crane and Snake styles in tandem with combat reflexes to basically just punish enemies for missing with their sloppy technique, along with tripping. Not much damage per hit, but very good defense that he can turn into scary offense when the hits start to build up.

[sblock]Unarmed Fighter 1 / MoMS Qinggong Monk 1 / UF +1 / Monk +3 / Inquisitor 3 / Duelist 9 / Shadowdancer 2

Feats:
1 Improved Unarmed Strike [Fighter]
1 Crane Style [Fighter]
1 Weapon Finesse
2 Crane Wing [Monk]
2 Stunning Fist (Fort DC 20 + wis; 9/day) [Monk]
3 Snake Style [Fighter]
3 Dodge
4 Snake Fang [Monk]
5 Mobility
7 Combat Expertise
9 Improved Trip
9 Tandem Trip [Inquisitor]
11 Greater Trip
13 Lookout
13 Combat Reflexes [Duelist]
15 Monastic Legacy
17 Crane Riposte
18 Deflect Arrows [Duelist]
19 Coordinated Charge

Other nice feats I didn't hav room for: Vicious Stomp, Fury’s Fall

Class: Stunning Fist (Stun 1 round or Fatigue), Evasion, AC bonus, Still Mind, Ki Pool (2+Wis points), True Strike (1 ki point), Fast Movement +10 ft, Maneuver Training, Stern Gaze (+1 intimidate/sense motive), Monster Lore (+Wis to ID creatures), Travel Domain (+10 speed; 3+ Wis/day rounds ignore difficult terrain), Judgement 1/day, Orisons, Cunning Initiative (+Wis to init), Detect Alignment, Track +1, Solo Tactics, Canny Defense, Parry, Riposte, Precise Strike (+9 damage), Improved Reaction +4, Enhanced Mobility, Grace (+2 Reflex), Acrobatic Charge, Elaborate Defense, No retreat, Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Dodge, Darkvision +30 ft, Improved Evasion?

Key gear:
Amulet of Mighty Fists (Guided)
+X Guided Rope Dart?
Monk’s Robe
Mage armor
Ring of Freedom of Movement
Ring of Deflection +5 and Featherfalling
Cloak of Resistance +5 and Minor Displacement
[/sblock]

You don't have to do it exactly like that, or as optimized, just an idea. He uses just about no magic at all and is outwardly weak, but pretty dang skilled. It's amazing how feat starved he was, even by end level.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

For my money I would go HW for different reasons and I would be taking Astral Terrain for Dim Door 3+ times/day, Plane of Air for 3+ Fly spells/day, and depending on the campaign one of the other ones that grants an SLA like Jungle... maybe I would go with the Water and Plane of Water to get Swim Speed and Freedom of Movement in water, but you could just start as an aquatic character for those...

Yeah, as I mentioned in the old thread, I like the idea of a HW using the 3 + wis per day dimension door to fuel Dimensional Dervish. Not sure what the full character should look like, might even be best as a Monk entry, which is pretty funny considering they get Abundant Step later anyway. Maybe a TWF Ranger?

 

[BBQLord]

Thanks for your replies, Salthorae and StreamOfTheSky.

Should probably have said what I'm allowed in the first post. Sorry, people!
I'm only allowed to use what's on the SRD, how it's the SRD. Unless it 'obviously' needs tweaking. There is also a very strong preference for Core and Paizo.

So sadly, I won't be able to use your suggestion, Salthorae.


That would mean the only requisites I need to concern myself with to enter the Horizon Walker are the Endurance feat and Knowledge (Geography) 6 ranks.

You're not applying your skill when needed, you're using your specialized knowledge when the opportunity presents itself, not quite the same thing.

That doesn't even sound all that bad to me, though. And maybe I could make that work. I have a feeling most of the encounters would feature the common PC races (humans, elves, half-elves, half-orcs, etc).

I've been looking into it and going with the 3.5 SRD...
Dwarves: Mountains
Deep Dwarves: Underground
Duergar: Underground

Elves: Forests
Half-Elves: Forests
Gray Elves: Mountains

Halflings: Plains
Deep Halflings: Mountains
Tallfellows: Forests

Gnomes: Mountains
Forest Gnomes: Forests
Svirfneblin: Underground

Orcs: Mountains
Half-Orc: ????

Human: ?????


So, with Mountains I'd get Dwarves, Gnomes and Orcs.
Forests would give Elves and Half-Elves.
Plains would give Halflings.
I'm not sure where Humans would fall in (Any?) and Half-Orcs (Mountains?).

So with Mountains and Forests (two of the three 'biggest' native terrains anyway) I'd pretty much cover all my bases as far as PC races are concerned.
The only thing more optimal would be the ruling that the civilized races are all native to the Urban environment P).

EDIT:

Wow, someone actually read my thread! I never even updated with the complete lack of interest.

Yes, I most certainly read your thread. I didn't post due to a fear of thread necromancy on my part.

It's tough in D&D. The "skillled" in weak and skilled is usually magic, and if you're weaker than the other non-casters, then you're just sort of inferior, combat-wise. All of the primary spellcasting classes are right out, including Bard. Paladin is too "strong" in vibe, what with all the armor, Ranger has some casting but it's very small. Fighter, Monk, and Rogue are the other options for base class. Barbarian would be, but raging doesn't seem like it jives with what you want, it's just too brash.

I could live with inherent bonuses from reading a book but even a magic weapon is not something I'd really like. I figured that through use of Terrain Dominance I might be able to avoid all such things and still come out somewhat alright. The question is: will I?


I'll look at your build sometime later today. I'm not all that familiar with the various feats and such. Still, you seem to lose a lot of skill points by not going with at least 6+Int classes...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, by using a Monk's Robe* with the Guided special property, wis becomes your main attack stat. Then after that you want dex, and int is useful with all the Duelist stuff (really...I think my original motive for making that build was to try and make a "duelist that doesn't suck"), strength is practically a dump stat. So the build's expected to come with a moderate to high int, which helps make up for the lack of base skill points from class.

*Two notes:
1. As with any unarmed build, the monk's robe is grossly tremendously overpriced, so you should rely on the party spellcaster to buff your unarmed strike with Greater Magic Weapon or Fang (you're a monk, so either works). However, you do not need to make the robe a +1 enhancement before adding properties, so paying a few thousand for one that simply has the Guided property is quite feasible.
2. When you use a combat maneuver with a weapon, you use that weapon's attack modifiers on your roll, sincei n PF, a combat maneuver is an attack. That means, doing unarmed tripping w/ your guided unarmed strikes, you're replacing str with wis for the CMB, so you can in fact make a good tripper while neglecting str.

Also, yes, you could just use the Weapon Finesse Duelist requires, but wis is a more useful stat, and weapon finesse only modifies attack, your damage would be pitiful w/o the guided weapon property.

EDIT: Ok, I was wrong. Don't know why I thought HW required BAB +6...

 

[BBQLord]

I'm not certain I understand.

A monk's robe is a wondrous item and the guided special property a weapon enhancement, can I stack their abilities onto the robe like that (by RAW or at least RAI)?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I got confused, I thought the Amulet of Mighty Fists was made into a robe; it was actually the 3E Monk's Belt that changed slots.

So yeah, Amulet of Mighty Fists is what I meant.

[sblock]This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.[/sblock]