House buying through the Stronghold Builder's Guide

[the Jester]

They got a really good deal. [And that has adventure hooks built right in.]

Well, that's because nobody would buy it for a fair price, after that family was murdered there a few years back. Everytime someone moves in they move out again in only a couple of weeks.

 

[Vraille Darkfang]

Ironically, they are immediately preparing to leave on another extended adventure (live in house 1 week, adventure will probably take several weeks).]

So, maybe they own a timeshare. Say a group of Drow Ninja-Pirate Assassins. (They wouldn't even know they are there).

"Ok. Who keeps leaving raw fish in the kitchen. Who keeps turning off the lights. WHY is there always a little origami toilet paper boat in the komode? AND WHY DO ALL OUR GUESTS WIND UP DEAD WITH A POISONED DART STICKING IN THEIR BACK?!?!?!?!?!"

Or maybe a bunch of half-orc Baarbarians.

"Oh man is it good to be home. Who the Abyss are you? And what stinks?"

"UGH, we here alternate weeks every other month. Like soft beds. Smell Thrusk, him have case of goblin fungus feet. No worry, cleric guy say he be fine wit puttin creme on it for couple weeks."

"What, what do you mean evrey other month? And that's not the smell I'm talking about."

"Pay man lots shiny coins, him say we own house part time. Got papers here someplace. Smell Thrusk, him like gnomish delayed blast fireball chili."

"WHAT? When I get ahold of our realtor, I'm.... THAT's still not the smell I'm talking about! Tne one that smells like summon summoned a flock of vrock with diarehea here!"

"Me like realtor bob, say this place real steal. Smell Thrusk. Him like fireball chili going down, but it go through him reeaaalll fast and Thrusk not housebroken."

"Oh, really where is Thrusk?"

"Him in first room to the left."

"WAIT! That's my room! Get the hell out of there NOW!!!!"

Sound of door slamming open

"Oh my GOD! WHAT THE?! I think I'm going to be sick. Sweet merciful Herionious, please take my sight."

"Oh, Thrusk in there with girlfriend. Revess one good, sturdy half-ogress. I think they like to do it gnolly-style."

"It burns, it burns. I'm gonna have to burn that bed. Maybe the whole house."

 

[Neo]

I like the simple construction rules in MMS:WE, myself. Very simple, including all kinds of options.

MMS:WE ? your gonna have to help me out on this one

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Don't forget that a peasant in D&D makes around 1d4 gp per month, and a noble around 150 gp per month (if I remember well).

So lets use those numbers as a start. This would mean that the middle class earns about 50-100 GP/month.

The house being built is 1600 square feet. Based upon what I know of the market here in Massachusetts, a four bedroom home of about 1600 feet would probably be valued at about $350,000 depending upon location, size of the plot etc.

Massachusetts Median household income is $53,000
Median property value is $219,000

Properties are therefore equal to about 4 times the annual household income.

The house in question is about 1.6 times the median value, so media value of a home in Quasqueton's game would be about 3300 gp

Therefore median income would be about 825gp/year or 70 gp/month

Doesn't seem that far off to me.

I think it is the cost of the small items that does not make sense - the lack of a coin below copper throws things off.

 

[Klaus]

Take a page from Fafhrd & The Gray Mouser and STEAL the house. The ENTIRE house!

 

[jmucchiello]

Buying Buildings
Characters might want to buy their own buildings or even construct
their own castle. Use the prices in Table: Buildings directly, or as a guide when for extrapolating costs for more exotic structures.

Table: Buildings
Item                    Cost
Simple house           1,000 gp
Grand house            5,000 gp
Mansion              100,000 gp
Tower                 50,000 gp
Keep                 150,000 gp
Castle               500,000 gp
Huge castle        1,000,000 gp
Moat with bridge      50,000 gp

Simple House: This one- to three-room house is made of wood and has a thatched roof.
Grand House: This four- to ten-room house is made of wood and has a thatched roof.
Mansion: This ten- to twenty-room residence has two or three stories and is made of wood and brick. It has a slate roof.
Tower: This round or square, three-level tower is made of stone.
Keep: This fortified stone building has fifteen to twenty-five rooms.
Castle: A castle is a keep surrounded by a 15-foot stone wall with four towers. The wall is 10 feet thick.
Huge Castle: A huge castle is a particularly large keep with numerous associated buildings (stables, forge, granaries, and so on) and an elaborate 20-foot-high wall that creates bailey and courtyard areas. The wall has six towers and is 10 feet thick.
Moat with Bridge: The moat is 15 feet deep and 30 feet wide. The bridge may be a wooden drawbridge or a permanent stone structure.

Why didn't you use these numbers as a guide?

 

[gizmo33]

Why didn't you use these numbers as a guide?

The problem that I have with those numbers is that 500,000 gp seems an awful lot for a castle compared to the wages for soldiers that I've seen. I could never convince the players in my campaign to build a castle based on those prices when it would seem cheaper to hire an army and equip them all with magic items.

IMO for castle technology to make sense, it has to be competitive with the prices for other kinds of defense. As someone pointed out earlier, it doesn't make any sense if the price of a castle is more than the price of making a Daern's Instant Fortress. It would seem to me that 500,000 invested in paying soldiers would have far greater benefit.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

MMS:WE ? your gonna have to help me out on this one

Sorry... Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe, by Expeditious Retreat Press.

 

[gizmo33]

The problem that I have with those numbers is that 500,000 gp seems an awful lot for a castle compared to the wages for soldiers that I've seen.

I take this back - although I still have concerns about the incentive for castle building given the costs.

www.castles-of-britian.com is a very interesting site with some cost figures. Assuming 1 sp/day for common laborer, the largest of castles is nearly 500,000 gp.

 

[S'mon]

It is a large house that's being described - FWIW I live in a house on outskirts of London, maybe 600 square feet including stairwell, cost £225,000 3 years ago - at £20 = 1gp, that'd be 11,250gp! A similar house in a different part of UK might cost £40,000, or 2,000gp at 20-1, or if you think 1gp = £50/$100 (probably more accurate these days) that'd be 800gp, which is about what it might cost in a D&D economy.

Depending on building materials, location, local labour costs etc I can conceivably see this merchant's villa costing up to 5,000gp to buy.

My D&D Economics

IMC I aim to keep the economics vaguely plausible - PCs may get overcharged, but usually for low-end stuff and stuff geared to the adventurer market, like tourists in 3rd-world countries pay a fortune for knicknacks and 3-star hotels. The cost of a house won't vary much depending on the buyer, not more than 10% or so. I base the following loosely off the OD&D Rules Companion rules.

I treat 1sp/day, 7 sp/week, as what the DMG describes it - basic subsistence _for one person_. Of course no one can feed a family or buy a house(!) on that income.

1. IMC a typical 5-person peasant family has income/production (mostly crops) of about 5sp/day, enough to feed the whole family. They built rather than bought the 1-2 room hovel they live in, which is worth maybe 50gp if sold. Of the 15 gp they produce a month, about 2.5gp is taken in taxes.

This scales up:

2. The middle class family (minor merchants, skilled craftsmen) make maybe 5gp/day, enough for a family of 5 to have a comfortable lifestyle, they live in a two-story 4-6 room wattle & daub timber-frame house worth maybe 1000gp. With 20% savings a middle-class family could save 360 gp/year and buy such a house in 3 years, more typically with 5% savings it would take 9 years, still doable. Of the 150gp/month they produce around 25gp goes in taxes.

3. Gentry, landed knights and wealthy merchants make maybe 5 times again, 25gp/day, and may live in a 5,000gp brick or stone mansion, again buyable in maybe 9 years. They produce 750 gp/month of which about 125gp goes in taxes.

4. Minor landed noble families may make 5 times again, 125 gp/day. They probably live in an inherited 50,000gp stone castle which would take 18 years to buy. They rake in 3750gp/month, mostly in taxes, of which 625gp goes in 'salt tax' to their own liege.

Note: These figures don't scale perfectly with the real world & PHB prices (IRL a longsword was worth considerably more than most peasant huts) but at least they make sense in the D&D economy.

Edit: To reiterate, the above family income figures are gross domestic product, including production by servants, serfs etc, not cash income. At a constant 5% savings rate the families would save the following amounts, second figure is what I suggest you let a PC living this lifestyle save monthly towards magi items etc without undue effort:

Peasant: 0.75gp/5sp
Middle Class: 7.5gp/5gp
Gentry: 37.5gp/30gp
Landed Nobility (Barons): 187.5gp/150gp

A great noble might earn 5 times the basic Landed Nobility figure, and a King or Emperor of a large nation 5 times again.