How about a survey on the 3E halfling?

[JeffB]

Re: back to the subject at hand...

Well this thread sure did wander way off track.

3. Believability. New halflings remain at the 3 foot height mark and yet weigh just 30 to 35 pounds. Such a weight is so utterly ludicrous it should have been laughed out of the books on day one. At this site: http://www.webhealthcentre.com/general/yc_hwchart.asp we see that a 3 year old child averages 3'1" and 32#, just right for a new halfling. But sweet Jesus, think about that for a second! A 3 year old child!?! The new halfling is the same size as a 3 year old child! Can a 3 year old wield a real short sword? Can he wear actual chain mail armor? Can he carry 3/4 the weight of an adult human? Can he compete physically with an adult human in anything? Of course not! And to say "well it's a fantasy game" just doesn't cut it. There has to be at least a small basis in real world physics to maintain the sense of believability and suspension of disbelief we need to immerse ourselves in the game world. A 30# halfling is utterly ridiculous.

This is my biggest problem..yeah it's fantasy, but c'mon...Even Dee's and Willingham's Halflings were a little "beefy" for their size.

But I think most folks could care less about the Tolkien influence... it's not "kewl" enough.. Most people want to play mini rasta-elves, and not quite as mini elves who like to tinker and /or be illusionists..not hobbits & gnomes (edit: nothing wrong with that, just making a comment) D&D has garnered it's own identity and gone it's own way in the last 10 years or so..much moreso w/ 3E.

 

[hong]

Re: Re: back to the subject at hand...

Most people want to play mini rasta-elves, and not quite as mini elves who like to tinker and /or be illusionists..not hobbits & gnomes (edit: nothing wrong with that, just making a comment) D&D has garnered it's own identity and gone it's own way in the last 10 years or so..much moreso w/ 3E.

Exactly. I don't recall any drow in Tolkien, for example.


Edit: Or gnomes, or frost giants, or fire giants, or kuo-toa....

 

[KnowTheToe]

Halflings bite! I prefer the older version. I just have not been able to make the transition to the new one, they seem a forced set of stat blocks to fit a power gamer nitch. Why would anyone put up with these half pint gypsie, traveling, Co**-heights anyway?

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

Re: back to the subject at hand...

Well this thread sure did wander way off track.

I'm 30 and I prefer the old halflings.

I believe WotC really missed the boat when they changed them and here's why:

26 here. Since the majority of the people polled like the new halfling I would say that WotC would have missed out by NOT retooling the halflings. So would the people who prefer the new halfling to the old ones. You grognards really don't think that anyone else should have a turn, huh?

1. Tolkien fans. Gary initially put them in to attract Tolkien fans; he has said as much on these boards. Why? Because those Tolkien fans are extremely numerous. Gary knew it would help the popularity of his game if he appealed to all sorts of fantasy fans, Tokien-ites included, so he did. But now WotC has excluded these same fans by changing the halflings into Kender so that the Tolkien influence is no longer present, and thus the attraction of the halfling is no longer bringing in these Tolkien-ites to boost our game. Also, it was known back when 3E came out that the LotR movies were being made and if I'm not mistaken, there were already some early spoiler pics available of Hobbiton and maybe more. In any case, it was a perfect opportunity to capitalize on the traditional Tolkien halfling in anticipation of the movies being successful. Even if they weren't, you're still attracting the book fans. Either way you're in a safe position and you're continuing the broad appeal of the D&D game.

Once again, the kender reference isn't relevant if you never knew about the kender in the first place. Also, Tolkien fans should NOT be catered to by WotC, D&D fans should be. And even then cater is a bit strong. People who have become Tolkien fans since the release of the movie haven't been excluded either. The halflings in the movie aren't the pot-bellied, ruddy faced cherubs that have always been portrayed as correect. Thus, the 3E halfling isn't so out of line with what people saw on screen.
I would hazard a guess that new Tolkien fans don't have the same preconceived, prejudicial notions about halflings that the staid, firmly entrenched "old guard" have. Just a guess.
D&D doesn't NEED Tolkien fans, it needs D&D fans. If those people like Tolkien too, hey, great.

2. Tradition. The old halfling is the way it's always been done in D&D. Unless there was a vital reason to change it, it should have been left alone to avoid annoying the many existing fans of the game. Respect for the old guard, and all that. If a Kender race was desired, then just add them to the core rules, don't replace a venerable favorite.

Obviously some of the old guard wanted a change. I know I did. Tradition is also synonymous with stagnation. Surely with 20+ years of material with the old halflings you can envision your 3E halfling with the characteristics of the old halflings.
One might think that after holding the ball for over two decades it would be a tad greedy not to pass it to someone else. Of course not, we wouldn't want to annoy the old guard.

I give you full credit for at least saying that the new halflings could have been included, as well as the old. After all this time though, don't you think people already know how the old halflings work? The old haflings, if included at all would be a short addendum at best.


Ugh, this part of my post got cut off.

3. Believability.

Ah yes, believability, the hallmark of fantasy, D&D especially.
I don't play rpgs because of the way they accurately simulate real life. For anyone to do so would be a big mistake.
Halflings may be the size of a human 3 year old, but they are not human 3 year olds. They aren't human. They might have a different skeletal system and musculature. If their weight bothers you that much, change it in your game, no one is going to stop you.
Dragons can produce viable offspring with nearly anything in the Monster Manual, is that realistic? Do you care if it is or not?

 

[Dinkeldog]

Let's see here.

The "new" halfling really isn't all that different from the old to me. They still are nimble and good at throwing things. They're not very strong. So now they have shoes. Okay. Feel free to remove their shoes. It's not like people don't apply much more radical changes to elves and dwarves regularly.

Oh, and they don't compete well physically against a human. They start with an 8 strength, and are effectively -5 against a human in a grapple. Which suits me fine.

 

[BonesMcCoy]

Re: Re: back to the subject at hand...

Since the majority of the people polled like the new halfling I would say that WotC would have missed out by NOT retooling the halflings..

But you are forgetting that posters on the internet represent only a tiny portion of the entire D&D audience.

Also, Tolkien fans should NOT be catered to by WotC, D&D fans should be.

But they shouldn't be mutually exclusive. The best way to ensure the continued success of D&D is to appeal to as broad an audience as possible without compromising the game. There is not only nothing wrong with pleasing Tolkien fans as well as regular D&Ders, but it is a sensible and desirable tactic.

The halflings in the movie aren't the pot-bellied, ruddy faced cherubs that have always been portrayed as correect. Thus, the 3E halfling isn't so out of line with what people saw on screen.

The version in the movie is definitely NOT in line with 3E. Do they look like 30# to you? Do they have elongated skulls? Are they waifishly thin compared to the humans? The official height they tried to represent in the films is 3'6". In the scene in Hobbiton where Gandalf is dancing with the village, they look that small, or even slightly smaller. But in the rest of the movie, the hobbits almost always come up to the bottom of the humans' chests. Probably closer to 4' in my opinion and a more believable height. But in any case they are not 30#. Maybe more like 80#, of course that is purely a guess.

Of course not, we wouldn't want to annoy the old guard.

Actually no, you shouldn't want to annoy the old guard. That is an exclusionary attitude that divides gamers and fragments our hobby. Rob Kuntz argues this very fact on his Pied Piper boards. Why do we have so many people sticking to the old editions? Why don't they want to switch and what could WotC have done, or even do now, to bring them back into the fold? More gamers playing 3E is good for all 3E fans. There is no reason why 3E could not have taken a more inclusionary attitude towards these gamers.

In fact, IMO only of course, it probably wouldn't hurt WotC at all to put out a smallish softcover detailing all the crunchy bits that would have to be done to give a 3E game a more 1E feel (a topic debated on dragonsfoot.org). Class selection restrictions, level limits and all that 'outdated' stuff. New gamers don't have to buy it and old gamers can switch to 3E and enjoy all the d20 products on the shelves. No harm done to either party and you just gained a bunch of gamers for 3E.

The entire halfling debate is just an extension of the 3E vs. 1E/2E debates. The new art look, the drastically different rules, the new 'attitude'. It is unnecessarily divisive and I believe WotC should take action to re-unite gamers of different editions instead of pretending there isn't a problem.

 

[KnowTheToe]

If the old halflings/hobbits were tired, why not change the elf and dwarf?

Halflings old and new are the sludge of the world and should be hunted and enslaved. Maybe they will have a chapter on this in the Book of Vile Darkness

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: back to the subject at hand...

But you are forgetting that posters on the internet represent only a tiny portion of the entire D&D audience.

I think that given the extend of 3E's sales, the "entire D&D audience" doesn't really mind the new halflings. Certainly the overall package seems to be doing quite well.

But they shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

Life's tough.

The best way to ensure the continued success of D&D is to appeal to as broad an audience as possible without compromising the game. There is not only nothing wrong with pleasing Tolkien fans as well as regular D&Ders, but it is a sensible and desirable tactic.

This is a bit late, and complaining now isn't going to change things.

The version in the movie is definitely NOT in line with 3E. Do they look like 30# to you? Do they have elongated skulls? Are they waifishly thin compared to the humans? The official height they tried to represent in the films is 3'6". In the scene in Hobbiton where Gandalf is dancing with the village, they look that small, or even slightly smaller. But in the rest of the movie, the hobbits almost always come up to the bottom of the humans' chests. Probably closer to 4' in my opinion and a more believable height. But in any case they are not 30#. Maybe more like 80#, of course that is purely a guess.

Oh well.

Actually no, you shouldn't want to annoy the old guard. That is an exclusionary attitude that divides gamers and fragments our hobby.

The only exclusionary attitude I've seen is on the part of certain persons who seem to feel WOTC pissed in their beer. To be honest, said persons would probably feel the same way unless 3E was a carbon copy of 2E. The fact is, however, given statements by some of the 3E designers to the effect that people didn't mind the changes they _did_ make, you should be glad that 3E keeps intact as many of the sacred cows as it does.

Rob Kuntz argues this very fact on his Pied Piper boards. Why do we have so many people sticking to the old editions?

Personally, I don't know of any. Nada. Zippo. Zilch. And before you point to the hordes of indignant gamers flooding dragonsfoot.org, I'll mention that it, like ENWorld, is also a tiny portion of the entire D&D market. In fact, it's most likely even tinier.

Why don't they want to switch and what could WotC have done, or even do now, to bring them back into the fold?

Nothing, probably. The only practical solution now is triage.

In fact, IMO only of course, it probably wouldn't hurt WotC at all to put out a smallish softcover detailing all the crunchy bits that would have to be done to give a 3E game a more 1E feel (a topic debated on dragonsfoot.org).

Why doesn't someone on dragonsfoot.org do exactly that? With the OGL and SRD, there's nothing stopping you. You don't need WOTC to do it for you. Assuming you can even define what a "1E feel" is, bear in mind that you're asking them to develop and support two almost, but not quite entirely different rulesets, not just now but also for the foreseeable future. This isn't going to happen.

Class selection restrictions, level limits and all that 'outdated' stuff. New gamers don't have to buy it and old gamers can switch to 3E and enjoy all the d20 products on the shelves. No harm done to either party and you just gained a bunch of gamers for 3E.

If you want to play 2E, the best way to do it is to play 2E. There's still tons of material out there for it, and it isn't going to go away.

 

[Argent Silvermage]

Best of Both worlds.

I loved the Kender and think the amalgam of the 1st edit. halfling and the Kender is very well done.
There is nothing saying you can't have a stay at home Halfling with furry feet and no shoes rtight along side his twin brother who is an adventurer and has boots of the winterlands.
Can't we just try to get along.

Bolo has big hairy feet. but likes his boots of Striding and Springing.
He is thin but developing a bit of a paunch. What is the harm. He loves his new home and Smokes way to much pipeweed.

He is my character. a typical halfling.

 

[WayneLigon]

40 years old, been playing D&D since the 'three book' stage, and I love the new 3E Halflings. [Really, I love almost everything about 3E, but that's not the point here].

I think the further it drifts from Tolkien, the better. Yes, inspired by Tolkien, but then, I think we can say that more than 75% of the modern fantasy genre is inspired by Tolkien.

Kender were a good step away from the fat hairy-toed stereotype that had grown up. Though I never particularly cared for Dragonlance as a game world (though I liked the first two series a great deal) it still served to remind people that a D&D game world doesn't have to be exactly like it is in the books. Even minor cosmetic changes can bring an entire new perspective to a campaign world.

That's why I like 3E halflings, because it cuts down on players saying 'But in LOTR, hobbits did this...'.

I'd have to see some pretty convincing evidence to beleive that people who see the LOTR movie would be inspired to come play D&D, then be put off because of the 'wrongness' of the 3E halfling. Movies never seem to have the impact people assume they do. Comic-book-based movies almost never create a market for the comic itself, save perhaps on a very short-term basis.