How about a survey on the 3E halfling?

[Fast Learner]

Hehe, ah the marvels of the powers of observation. You're quite right. Do you need the Alertness feat to qualify as a Fast Learner?

Hmm, apparently, and it seems to be a feat you're missing. Read the thread again and you might actually understand what I wrote.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Re: Re: Re: back to the subject at hand...

In fact, IMO only of course, it probably wouldn't hurt WotC at all to put out a smallish softcover detailing all the crunchy bits that would have to be done to give a 3E game a more 1E feel (a topic debated on dragonsfoot.org). Class selection restrictions, level limits and all that 'outdated' stuff. New gamers don't have to buy it and old gamers can switch to 3E and enjoy all the d20 products on the shelves. No harm done to either party and you just gained a bunch of gamers for 3E.

Are there really any 1E players out there who don't already know the class selection restrictions by heart? I don't have a problem with the class selection restrictions, per se, but I think they're something that should be instituted by individual DMs on a campaign-by-campaign basis. If dwarves can be fighters, and dwarves can be clerics, and the majority of dwarves are lawful good - why can't dwarves be paladins?

Sure, if you as a DM didn't want it that way, you could come up with some arbitrary reasoning behind your decision. But to include such restrictions in the rules without any real justification is just silly.

And level limits were silly to begin with. Give me one logical reason why a race that lives for 300+ years would decide to stop adventuring at 9th level.

Their only purpose was to cripple the demihumans so that you didn't end up with an entire party of elves. Now, with the bonus feat and extra skill points, there's a real reason to play a human, and level limits aren't needed. I'd say that a majority of players in 3E play as humans anyways.

And for the record, I've never encountered a 1E or 2E DM who took those level limits seriously, and I've played under quite a few - yes, even members of the "old guard."

 

[Kilmore]

Really! It's a big wide loving world! There's enough room for neo-hobbits and shavefoots to live together in joyful harmony! (Especially after they slaughter the goblins).

Peace... Kilmore.

 

[tsadkiel]

If the old halflings/hobbits were tired, why not change the elf and dwarf?

Short answer - they did. Not as much as they changed halflings, and certainly not as much as they changed orcs, but all the races have had a significant Tolkein extraction. Which is just as well, as they'd all been Tolkeined up between 1E and 2E.

 

[tsadkiel]

Double post.

 

[Vaxalon]

Once again, this poll is too limited.

I prefer *my* halflings, which, like humans, come in rotund and svelte, larcenous and domestic.

I really don't like polarizing polls.

 

[Bran Blackbyrd]

Re: Re: Re: back to the subject at hand...

But you are forgetting that posters on the internet represent only a tiny portion of the entire D&D audience.

This is called sampling. For better or worse, it's done all the time.

But they shouldn't be mutually exclusive. The best way to ensure the continued success of D&D is to appeal to as broad an audience as possible without compromising the game. There is not only nothing wrong with pleasing Tolkien fans as well as regular D&Ders, but it is a sensible and desirable tactic.

Nor did I say they should be mutually exclusive. I think WotC did just fine in their attempt to appeal to a broad audience. Witness the varied and sometimes conflicting personalities here at EN World.

The version in the movie is definitely NOT in line with 3E. Do they look like 30# to you? Do they have elongated skulls? Are they waifishly thin compared to the humans? The official height they tried to represent in the films is 3'6". In the scene in Hobbiton where Gandalf is dancing with the village, they look that small, or even slightly smaller. But in the rest of the movie, the hobbits almost always come up to the bottom of the humans' chests. Probably closer to 4' in my opinion and a more believable height. But in any case they are not 30#. Maybe more like 80#, of course that is purely a guess.

I'm not sure what 30# is supposed to be.
Those halflings in the movie don't look like the halflings I saw in pre-3E artwork. YMMV.

Actually no, you shouldn't want to annoy the old guard. That is an exclusionary attitude that divides gamers and fragments our hobby. Rob Kuntz argues this very fact on his Pied Piper boards. Why do we have so many people sticking to the old editions? Why don't they want to switch and what could WotC have done, or even do now, to bring them back into the fold? More gamers playing 3E is good for all 3E fans. There is no reason why 3E could not have taken a more inclusionary attitude towards these gamers.

The only people with exclusionary attitudes are the people who don't want 3E to be 3E. The people who don't think that 20+ years of the old way was enough. The people too selfish to let go and admit that other people should be allowed to have a turn. If people are sticking to the old editions then let them. They already have their game, why do they want to change ours?

In fact, IMO only of course, it probably wouldn't hurt WotC at all to put out a smallish softcover detailing all the crunchy bits that would have to be done to give a 3E game a more 1E feel (a topic debated on dragonsfoot.org). Class selection restrictions, level limits and all that 'outdated' stuff. New gamers don't have to buy it and old gamers can switch to 3E and enjoy all the d20 products on the shelves. No harm done to either party and you just gained a bunch of gamers for 3E.

I don't think this would sell very well. This is the kind of thing that any competent pre-3e player could write and put on their website. Making a 3E halfling into a pre-3E halfling is mostly image based, artwork based. In other words, tweak a few stats and imagine big furry feet and that's it. Do we really need a whole publication for that? No. I imagine Hasbro's accountants wouldn't think so either, and that won't help ANY fan of D&D.

The entire halfling debate is just an extension of the 3E vs. 1E/2E debates. The new art look, the drastically different rules, the new 'attitude'. It is unnecessarily divisive and I believe WotC should take action to re-unite gamers of different editions instead of pretending there isn't a problem.

People who keep wailing about how 3E is too different are unnecessarily divisive. WotC just needs to keep making quality products. If the disgruntled gamers want to "re-unite" then they need to get over themselves. If they want 2E, then they already have it. Hands off my 3rd Edition.

The only exclusionary attitude I've seen is on the part of certain persons who seem to feel WOTC pissed in their beer. To be honest, said persons would probably feel the same way unless 3E was a carbon copy of 2E. The fact is, however, given statements by some of the 3E designers to the effect that people didn't mind the changes they _did_ make, you should be glad that 3E keeps intact as many of the sacred cows as it does.

If you want to play 2E, the best way to do it is to play 2E. There's still tons of material out there for it, and it isn't going to go away.

Bingo. My point exactly (should I be afraid?).

Hmm, apparently, and it seems to be a feat you're missing. Read the thread again and you might actually understand what I wrote.

Uhh, how about you slow down and read my post again. Not only did I agree with you, but I engaged in friendly, even complimentary, banter. So much for being friendly. Perhaps the complimentary part should be withdrawn?

 

[Winterthorn]

Well, the poll's almost closed...

Geez, I never imagined I'd cause all that "hallabaloo".
And that flame fest. Eeeew. Someone *hong* kept their head!

My apologies for causing the fuss. I had hoped to find out how ppl felt. Usually we are quite civil around ENWorld--and most of you folks were here too--I did not anticipate such strong feelings about ppl's taste for a race only 3 feet tall :smirk: (Okay, I'm being mischevious there--I'm expecting hordes of halflings will sack my apartment any day now )

Anyways, I ultimately wished to know if there was a "generation gap" regarding ppl's tastes; the 3E version of the halfling being quite different in "concept" from the earlier incarnations we're used to. Personally, I am not wild about the 3E halfling, primarily because I am so accustomed to the "hobbitish" version. Additionally, the "new" version seems even less distinct from being "pint sized" humans than the Tolkienesque model. Nonetheless I certainly wouldn't impose either version upon my players--and I will probably offer the "hobbit" as a cultural variant to the 3E halfling. Perhaps a cultural/regional feat will make the distictions more mechanically interesting--I'll have to think about that. (Feat? Feet? There's a pun I've missed )

Ooops! I forgot the poll results so far:

For the age group 20 years or less (mostly "newbie" D&Ders) there's no significant difference in their taste between the 3E halfling and the pseudo-hobbit "of old" Approx 1:1.

Those 20-30 years of age we see the most dramatic difference! I imagine these D&Ders have significant knowledge of 2E and a fair degree of exposure to 1E even. Yet the numbers show a clear preference in the ENWorld community for the 3E halfling! Approx 3:1.

The last group is really interesting. Older D&Ders (those over 30 years old) are less enthused by the 3E halfling than the 20-something crowd, yet they also prefer the new 3E halfling from the old "hobbit"! Approx 2:1

I don't quite know what to make of it all. It seems young players don't really care due to lack of exposure to the "hobbit"? That the oldest crowd still liked the change to 3E suggests to me the change was more than welcome...

BTW: thanks to those who piped in on the history of Tolkien's hobbits and those old english references to "hob-"; quite informative.

-W.

 

[BrassDragon]

This post made me register. I just had to share my love for the new halflings with the world. I couldn't resist... help me.

Regards,
BrassDragon

 

[mirzabah]

This post made me register. I just had to share my love for the new halflings with the world. I couldn't resist... help me.

Sorry, you're beyond help. Like the rest of the Kender lovers

Hmmm. Looks like being right got a little less lonely. Currently 69.34% favour 3E's abominable halfling, down from 70.41%. Still, I have to share my preference with lunatic trolls...