how about this mana point version?

[evilbob]

To avoid hijacking Milayl's thread completely, I wanted to say that DungeonMaester's contributions really seemed to go a long way toward solving some of the long-time problems I've encountered in my own tinkering with mana point systems. Increasing the cost of spells exponentially always seemed like the most "fair" way to balance the system, but in the end the math was overwhelming and therefore useless. Limiting the number of points was the other way to go, but I couldn't find a good way to go about this until I read the quite obvious and intuitive system proposed in Milayl's thread.

Along these lines, I've thrown together a quick expanded version of DungeonMaester's suggestion, which I believe is still simple and also accounts for several of the various quirks and intricacies that need to be protected in order to maintain a balanced system. The assumptions I've worked from include the idea that limiting the absolute total number of spells per day is balanced with the idea of casting potentially more (but not too many more) than the normal number of upper level spells and gaining spontaneous casting. Also, spontaneous casters need to be able to maintain sheer firepower superiority over their preparation counterparts as per their current setup, and those with spontaneous substitution abilities need to be able to maintain their level of mastery over these spells as well. Comments and suggestions welcome:



Mana point system (adapted from various suggestions on ENworld, especially from ideas contributed by DungeonMaester)

Summary: (non-legalese version)
- mana points per class = total number of spells per day (not including domain spells) + bonus spells from high stats
- all spells are spontaneous and cost [spell level + 1] mana points, or [spell level] points if it would have been spontaneously cast or substituted (minimum 1 point)
- metamagic requires [spell level + 1] points + 1 point per increased spell level; no change in casting time


Total Mana Points: For each spell-casting class, add up the total number of spells per day for that class level along with any bonus spells from a high casting stat. Domain spells do not count toward this total, but are available to a class as normal (one per spell level available up to the highest level spell known). For example, a Sorcerer with an 18 CHA would have 5 zero level spells, 3 first level spells, and 1 bonus first level spell, for a total of 9 mana points. A level 10 cleric with 22 WIS would have 29 mana points (22 from each spell available, disregarding all domain spells [6 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 3 + 2], plus 7 more from bonus spells [2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1]) - and in addition, one 5th level domain spell, one 4th level domain spell, and so on. A level 7 Paladin with a 16 WIS would have 2 points (1 first level spell, 1 bonus spell). (Note that each spell-casting class taken by a character has a separate mana point "pool.")

Casting: All casting is spontaneous. (Classes with domain spells may cast their domain spells from any domain available to them.) Spells cost mana points equal to their spell level + 1. If a class was naturally a spontaneous caster (such as a sorcerer or bard), or if a class does not grant zero-level spells (such as a paladin or ranger), spells cast from that class cost mana points equal to their spell level, to a minimum of 1 point. Classes which can spontaneously substitute spells (such as a cleric's ability to spontaneously substitute cure spells) can cast spells of that type for a mana point cost of their spell level.

Metamagic: If metamagic is applied to a spell, its base cost is always its full mana point cost (equal to spell level + 1). Further, increase the cost in mana points by the number of spell levels the metamagic would raise the spell. Also, you cannot increase a spell with metamagic beyond the highest level spell you can normally cast. For example, an empowered fireball would cost 6 points (4 base cost from the third level spell, plus 2 from empower) and require the ability to cast fifth level spells. A quickened fireball would cost 8 points and require the ability to cast seventh level spells. Metamagic does not increase the casting time for spells.

All other spell-casting traits: As normal for the class. Normal resting rules for regaining spells also apply for regaining mana points.

 

[Pyrex]

Let me see if I've got this straight.

A 6th level Sor with a 14 Cha would have (6+6+5+3 base + 1+1 bonus) 22 mana points.

Casting his expected 3x 3rd level spells-per-day would cost him 9 mana, leaving him with 13.

Casting his expected 5x 2nd level spells-per-day would cost him 10 mana. Leaving him with only enough for 3x 1st level and, er, apparently any number of 0-cost cantrips.

This gives him *less* spells per day than the typical progression, and the higher level the Sor gets the worse it gets for him (when levelling from 17th level to 18th level, a Sor only gains 4mp, but casting a single 9th level spell costs him 9!)

And the wizard paying SpellLevel+1 is even more hosed because he gets less MP, *and* his spells cost more. Yikes. And Ow.

Also, how do you determine how many spells the wizard has available? His whole spellbook? Typical memorization? Something else?

(possible revision follows)
Something like this might actually work well with a smaller mana pool that refreshes per encounter instead of a larger one that refreshes per day.

 

[evilbob]

Basically, yes. Sorcerers get fewer overall spells per day, but they gain the ability to potentially cast more high-level spells per day. A level 6 sor might only have 22 mana, but they could cast 7 fireballs as opposed to 3 or 4. When that same sorcerer goes from level 17 to 18, they do have far fewer spells overall they can cast - but they can cast 7 or more 9th level spells, instead of just 3.

Wizards also get fewer spells per day, but they gain the ability to spontaneously cast spells AND the ability to cast a greater number of high level spells per day. That seemed fair to me.

And yes, I had intended this to mean "spontaneously cast any spell in a wizard's spellbook," which I believe greatly offsets the loss of total spells (maybe even too much, but that's hard to judge).

I had also fooled around with gaining back mana points over time, but basically that mechanic just doesn't seem to fit well within DnD's very entrenched "per day" system. Once you start counting hours, it really starts to get tedious. Also, giving a sorcerer back points after an encounter will only lead to MORE high level spells being spent per encounter, thus increasing their overall power. However, your suggestion of a very small spell pool that is regenerated after each encounter is not a bad one - basically like a lot of the newer Final Fantasy games.

(Also, please note that zero level spells would cost 1 point to everyone.)

 

[Melayl]

Overall, it is quite simple and easy to use. Not bad. However, the problem most people have with mana systems is exactly the ability to cast more high-level spells than with the current Vancian/Gygaxian system.

I haven't come up with a good solution for my system yet, so I can't help you there. All that really matters, though, is if your group likes it and has fun with it (the truest measure of a successful system of anything).

Also, I appreciate the politeness of not hijacking my thread.

 

[Pyrex]

Basically, yes. Sorcerers get fewer overall spells per day, but they gain the ability to potentially cast more high-level spells per day.

That's not really balanced though.

Sure, it's nice to be able to toss out a couple more high-end blaster spells, but the game's design assumes a fair number of lower-level filler/utility/buffing spells as well; and as written this variant *really* hurts a high-level caster's mid-level spell selection.

Ponder Joe-Bob the 17th level generalist Wizard with 19 Int (Yeah, he'd probably have a bit more int, but this makes it easy.

Joe-Bob has 38 mana (4+4+4+4+4+4+4+3+2+1 base + 1+1+1+1 bonus).

Normally, Joe-Bob would quite a few low-to-mid level spells available. Under this system after he's cast his top-level spells (2x 8th and 1x 9th) he's down to 10 mana, which doesn't even let him cast 2 of his expected 3 daily 7th level spells. In order to match his previous top-level spellcasting ability he has to sacrifice his entire complement of 0-6th level spells.

Joe-Bob is screwed.

You've reduced his casting power by at least 2/3's in order to give him the potential to cast two more 9th level spells per day.

 

[DungeonMaester]

First, I would like to take the time to thank EvilBob and every one else who has taking part in debating ideas I have brought to the table, from this, to the 'Advanced' 3.5, it's fun fun debunking myths and the rules behind them.

Now, on to the fun part. I'm not a math major. On the contrary, Im a English major. So where is 9 points coming from for a 3d level spell? Is it a expansion from my rules? In mine, spells cost 1+spell level, so a 3rd level spell cost 4 points. In the first example where joe blow wizard had a a 19 int and a mana pool of 22, a 3rd level spell cost 4 points, leaving him with 18, not 12.

This is, of course, unless I missed what the adaptation was from Bob's to mine.

One difference between the two which is important to note though. In my Mana pool system, thee are feats to accompany this. For example 'Mana Battery' allows a player to once a day refill his mana pool equal to the bonus spells gained. Another one allowed you to take off one point from it would cost to cast a meta, but it does not change the spell level. (Four meta pre-req)

My last note is this: As a Dm, its important to fully understand the rules before you change them. Or else you make your players suffer through another bad Spell Charge variant.

---Rusty

 

[Pyrex]

... So where is 9 points coming from for a 3d level spell? Is it a expansion from my rules?

Sorry if my first post above wasn't clear enough.

EvilBob posited SpellLevel mana points for Sorcerers and SpellLevel+1 mana points for Wizards.

In my first post above I examined a 6th level sorcerer casting *three* 3rd level spells (exactly what a RAW 6th level sorcerer would have) thereby spending 9 mana (3 3rd level spells * 3 mana each) reducing his manapool from 23 to 13.

My last note is this: As a Dm, its important to fully understand the rules before you change them. Or else you make your players suffer through another bad Spell Charge variant.

Undoubtedly. That's why I'm trying to explain points in a typical progression where I believe the proposed system doesn't really work well.

 

[DungeonMaester]

All right. But my basic math is still off. Would it be 4x3 for 3 3rd level spell casters? Because if its 1+spell level, a 3rd would cost four. So in the example, it would take 12 points, leaving 10 points left?

---Rusty

 

[DungeonMaester]

Undoubtedly. That's why I'm trying to explain points in a typical progression where I believe the proposed system doesn't really work well.

Which is why I have tons of feats for my mana pool system. It make Spell caster need only to cast spells, since they can do it so easily with a hand full of house feats as described in my last post.

---Rusty

P.S. On a Side note, I feel that alot of Dms are trying to change rules, with out understanding them. Which I have took upon my spell to crusade against.

 

[Pyrex]

Also, giving a sorcerer back points after an encounter will only lead to MORE high level spells being spent per encounter, thus increasing their overall power. However, your suggestion of a very small spell pool that is regenerated after each encounter is not a bad one - basically like a lot of the newer Final Fantasy games.

(Warning: Complete and total threadjack to follow...)

Right. Spell point systems tend to have two problems:

1) Casters frequently end up with *way* too many low level spells available, producing some wacky results like everyone constantly having dozens of low-level buff spells on them

2) Some casters take the opposite route and ignore low-level spells and instead cast twice as many (or more) high-level spells as they should have available.

2.1) Given that casters can use more power faster, they frequently run out of steam before their typical 4 encounters/day have been completed.

So, how do we a) preserve the flexibility of a spell-point system; b) prevent casters from overpowering a single encounter and c) prevent casters from running out of gas all at the same time?

What if hybridize further and posit giving a caster two seperate mana pools?

Jim-Bob the 6th level Sorcerer with a 14 Cha (he's Joe-Bob's cousin ) would have (6+6+5+3 base + 1+1 bonus) 22 mana as posted above.

What if his base manapool (20) regenerated daily with rest, but he recovered his bonus manapool (2) every time he had a chance to catch his breath? (say, 5min rest).

This prevents him from being totally depleted for any given combat, and gives him a little more out-of-combat flexibility without giving him truly endless amounts of casting because he's eventually going to deplete his 'daily' pool and have to take 5 and wait for his 'combat' pool to refresh.