how about this mana point version?

[Pyrex]

(And with the new idea I posted above, it would be more than you've shown: 52 mana would yield 4/6/6/5/5/5/1/0/0/0 - fairly close to the original total, and again, all spontaneously cast.)

Wait, which new idea? I think I may have lost track...

A wizard's main strength is versitility. Increasing this strength to nigh limitless potential requires quite a drawback. In this case, it is losing lots of spells...My argument is that it is simply worth it. Sure, you only have a handful of spells - but you have exactly the handful you need, every time.

Well, at this point you'll have to playtest it as I clearly can't convince you any further.

 

[Pyrex]

...is to come up with a system that allows low-level spells to cost less when higher level spells are available. Something along the lines of: when you are able to cast 5th level spells, 1st level spell costs drop by 1/2...

Ahh, this one.

Having spells cost different amounts at different levels only mitigates half the problem, and doesn't help the other half at all. It improves the availability of lower-level spells but does nothing to help the caster who ran out of gas because he either a) totally overpowered one encounter or b) cast a moderate assortment of 6-8th level spells.

Also from a design standpoint it feels clunky.

The more I think about it the more it feels like there needs to be some number of mana points that refreshes more often than daily.

What if we used a concept like Psionic Focus? You spend a full-round action and make a concentration check to gain 'Magical Attunement'. When you expend your 'Magical Attunement' you reduce the mana cost of your next spell cast that round by, say, half what it would cost to cast your highest level spell to a minimum of 1 MP. (so for a 17th level Wizard it'd reduce the cost of your next spell by 5mp, A first level wizard, could expend his attunement to reduce the 2mp cost of his Magic Missile to 1mp).

That prevents the need to track a second rapid-refresh manapool, removes the clunky cost-scaling, and quite linearly lets the caster trade time for spells. They have to think hard about regaining focus (i.e., effectively regenerating mana) during combat because it costs them a round worth of actions (which is really the only relevant currency during combat), and makes out-of-combat spellcasting that much easier, while still limiting them to fewer spells-per-day than they would get as printed.

 

[evilbob]

Well, at this point you'll have to playtest it as I clearly can't convince you any further.

Heh. I still think you're undervaluing the strength of casting potentially any arcane spell, but I do think playtesting is in order. Did you evaluate the counterpoint from four or five posts ago, where the wizard would cast spells at [spell level] cost and see if that seemed closer?

As for the lower-level spell point reduction, it seems clunky because it is clunky. That was my first pass; I feel as though it would be useful but I'm still not sure how best to implement it.

The more I think about it the more it feels like there needs to be some number of mana points that refreshes more often than daily.

And I agree, although that opens a potentially huge can of worms. Honestly, after some thought I just don't think you can allow any caster the chance to cast any number of spells per day (which is effectively what "mana point regeneration" would be). There are just too many spells that are specifically designed in a way that's far too powerful if casters can throw them around very much more often than they already do. (Many high level arcane spells, any cure spell, etc.)

What if we used a concept like Psionic Focus? ...

This idea is certainly interesting, and perhaps something closer to these lines would help. I'm not really familiar with psionics, so I'm not familiar with this idea. How long does the attunement last after the check? Is it just for the next round or does it work "until you use it?"

Also, the entire idea of trading time for casting power is almost an entire other discussion. I'm not sure if it's a viable DnD mechanic, only because (in my own estimates) probably more than 50% of battles last 5 rounds or less, so its effectiveness in battle is questionable, and its effectiveness out of battle is ...well, unquestioned. Casting buffs and heals for reduced cost all the time could end up with a cleric gaining more casts per day, even with spontaneous casting.

Perhaps it would be more useful to restrict this idea to the naturally spontaneous casters? I'm still looking for anything that can make them have something more unique... What if only sorcs and clerics casting cure/inflict spells (and other classes with similar abilities) could spend time to reduce their casting costs? What if the time they spent was a standard action that would only affect spells cast in the next round?


Edit: Actually, how about this:

Spontaneous casters gain the ability to "mana focus" (name TBD). This ability allows them to spend an action to reduce the cost of their next spell. They must spend a standard action to make a (casting stat) check of 10 + the number of mana points they wish to reduce their next spell. They may reduce the spell a number of mana points up to the highest level spell known. For example, a 10th level sorcerer could reduce a spell by 5 points by making a DC 15 Cha check. The effect of the focus lasts for one round or until used.

Clerics can mana focus using a Wis check to reduce the cost of their next cure/inflict spells, and druids could do it for a summon spell. How's that for a mechanic? I purposely went away from using a Concentration skill mechanic in order to avoid suddenly causing all casters to have a 2nd "most important" stat that they needed to sink ability points into. Also, I figured that a DC 10 + mana points would be somewhat fair, since a typical caster's main stat will range from +3 to +8 (and beyond) from level 1 to 20 and you want to give them around an even chance to focus their maximum potential, although it would be generally easier at low levels and harder at high levels.

 

[Land Outcast]

Spontaneous casters gain the ability to "mana focus" (name TBD). This ability allows them to spend an action to reduce the cost of their next spell. They must spend a standard action to make a (casting stat) check of 10 + the number of mana points they wish to reduce their next spell. They may reduce the spell a number of mana points up to the highest level spell known. For example, a 10th level sorcerer could reduce a spell by 5 points by making a DC 15 Cha check. The effect of the focus lasts for one round or until used.

Hum... this would have a too big rate of failure to be used comfortably
How about granting the caster an extra +3 on the check if a full-round action is used, and an extra +3 if the spell's casting time is increased to a full round action?

 

[Pyrex]

This idea is certainly interesting, and perhaps something closer to these lines would help. I'm not really familiar with psionics, so I'm not familiar with this idea. How long does the attunement last after the check? Is it just for the next round or does it work "until you use it?"

The idea is that it's a moderately difficult Concentration check (can't be reliably made in combat until 7th-10th level) and once you've acquired focus you retain it until used.

The idea being there is plenty of time out of combat to recover and use your focus, and you can always start combat focused, but have to think hard about focusing in combat.

 

[Pyrex]

... I purposely went away from using a Concentration skill mechanic in order to avoid suddenly causing all casters to have a 2nd "most important" stat that they needed to sink ability points into...

Casters are already putting max-ranks into concentration anyway, so Con is no more a stat-sink than it already would have been.

 

[evilbob]

Casters are already putting max-ranks into concentration anyway, so Con is no more a stat-sink than it already would have been.

That's true, but placing a class-specific feature into a Con-based skill still seems to increase its value too much.

I'm also not entirely happy with the idea of "auto-focusing" before any battle... I mean, why add yet another thing to keep track of outside of battle? "Did you remember to focus? No? Ok, well you don't get your class feature at the beginning of the battle." That kind of mechanic reminds me of the dodge feat - it's cumbersome and easily side-stepped, so why make it that way in the first place? (And if these house rule boards are any indication, that feat is one that clearly needs much less maintenance.) Also, a full-round action is still just too much to give up for something that is supposed to be a serious addition to the class... In fact, it's almost worth just making it a move action, since god knows there'd be a feat to make it that eventually anyway - and every sorc would take it (kind of like natural spell for druids; they may as well make it a class feature, so many people take it).


Land Outcast: Actually, I was kind of thinking of raising the DC to 12 + points. I think it would have a fairly high rate of success as-is for low levels (something on the order of 60 - 70%) and it would only get easier to remove a small amount of mana from one spell. On the other hand, removing the maximum amount should always be tricky. I like the idea of taking more of a risk in order to knock off more mana points, whereas knocking off one or two should be simple.


Edit: Ok, here's a better idea: in order to keep it closer to other DnD mechanics, how about "mana focus" be like those special "modified level checks" or whatever they're called: you roll d20 and add 1/2 your caster level (rounded down) + casting stat modifier. The DC is 15 + [points to remove], and the maximum points that can be removed is equal to 1/2* the highest spell level you can cast, rounded up. Spells can be reduced to a minimum of 1 point. It requires a move action that provokes an AoO to do, but if you make it a standard action you gain +2 on your check, and if you make it a full-round action you gain +4. You can only do it once per round regardless, and it lasts for 1 round or until you use it. Future feats could include raising your "waiting bonus" to +3/+6 and extending the number of rounds it lasts.

*Additional edits to this paragraph.

Also: there is a hidden cost in this entire mechanic, in that you're basically causing the sorcerer to just flat-out roll more dice.

 

[evilbob]

Or how about something completely different.

Sorcerer:
- total mana points equals [character level] + [Cha bonus]
- spells cost [spell level] mana points to cast
- sorcerers regenerate mana points at a rate of [1/2 the highest spell level available, rounded down] points per round

Short, simple, to the point. Your regen kicks in at level 4 and you never look back. How's this for a "small, rapidly recharging" idea?

Edit:
Actually, here's an entire set of revised mana point rules, based on the ideas from this thread. It's written in the non-legalese version, so please be kind about holes. Comments welcome.

Mana Point System

- classes that prepare spells gain mana points = total number of prepared spells available (excluding domain spells) (including bonus spells granted by domains or specialty schools) at their class level + total number of bonus spells granted from a high casting stat + spellcasting class level (paladins and similar classes treat their spellcasting class level as [level - 3])

- spontaneous casting classes gain mana points = casting stat bonus + spellcasting class level (bards and similar classes divide their mana point total by 2)

- spontaneous casting classes gain mana point regeneration at the rate of [1/2 highest spell level available, rounded down] points / round

- all spells are cast spontaneously and cost [spell level] points to cast; zero level spells cost 1/2 point

- metamagic adds a mana point cost equal to the number of spell levels it would have added

- spontaneous casting classes using metamagic must pay +1 points per spell, or +1/2 point for zero level spells.

- clerics and other classes that can spontaneously substitute spells may cast those spells at [spell level - 1] points, minimum 1/2 point.

- domain spells are not changed (gain 1 per spell level available / day), but may be cast spontaneously from available domain lists

- classes that prepare spells create a "spell list" each day; they prepare a number of spells of each spell level equal to the normal amount of spells per day they would have received for that spell level. classes with bonus spells (such as cleric domain spells or wizard specialty schools bonus spells) simply add additional spells as normal from their bonus spell lists to their daily "spell list."

Edit: Added the "prepare your spell list for the day" rule from what I believe is the UA variant.

 

[erf_beto]

- sorcerers regenerate mana points at a rate of [1/2 the highest spell level available, rounded down] points per round

I would try to avoid keeping track of mana regen during combat (dnd has a lot of numbers to keep track of or look over already).

Also, that would allow low level sorcerers to cast magic missiles or true strikes every round...

Anyway, if you want to recover mana during battle (when it's really needed), add a "magic focus' option, where a concentration check as a full round action that provokes AoO allows to regain some mana (like 10 or 5%). But also consider further reducing mana total for spontaneous casters if you do something like this (like 1, 2 or 3 times your highest spell level), but having them fully recover after battle (say 10 minutes after combat). Say a sorcerer has 3 mana: 10% is 0.3, so 0.3+0.3+0.3+0.3 = 1.2~1 mana in 4 full rounds of focusing... not really usefull during battle, but real good after it (BTW, the math needs checking for power abuse, i'm just brainstorming...)

Also, not to be rude or stray from the original thread or anything, but why aren't we happy about UA's spell point system? For one thing, it's sort of 'official'... is it because they capped damage dice? Because the numbers get too high after level 10?

 

[evilbob]

I don't think keeping track of a mana point regen is over the line; many characters have the ability to regen HP and they seem to deal with that alright. Basically, my litmus test is dodge: if it's as annoying to deal with as the dodge feat, change it. If it's easier, that's probably ok.

Also, that would allow low level sorcerers to cast magic missiles or true strikes every round...

They wouldn't gain that ability until level 4, at which point casting magic missiles every round is not really unlike what they already do. As for true strike, if a sorc wants to spend every other round not dealing damage, I'd say that seems perfectly reasonable to me. (For one thing, there aren't really any good damage-dealing level 1 spells that need to be true striked. About the only spell they could affect at that point is scorching ray - a 2nd level spell that does 4d6 at level 4. Not a deal-breaker.)

Honestly, at this point I'm not opposed to giving a sorc the ability to constantly shoot low-level spells. There are several feats in the new Complete Mage that are called "reserve" feats that duplicate this effect; for example, if a level 4 sorcerer kept at least 1 2nd level spell in reserve, they could shoot 2d6 5' fireballs every round. I've seen this feat in action and it is not unbalancing. If anything, it makes the spellcaster more hesitant to bring out the big guns.

As for your "mana focusing" idea, please read the previous posts.

Also, not to be rude or stray from the original thread or anything, but why aren't we happy about UA's spell point system?

I've never seen this system and don't know anything about it. Other than that, why create any system that the devs have already taken a crack at? Because you think you can make it better, of course!