how about this mana point version?

[evilbob]

Is this the UA system?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm


Edit: Either way, that seems like a bad system. Sorcerers get almost no advantage whatsoever (just a very few more spell points and about the same number of total castable spells), and at high levels they can fling around completely absurd numbers of upper-level spells all at once.

However, I do believe the idea of allowing prepared-spell casters only prepare the number of spells that day they should have known (with bonus spells like domains and specialty schools being extra prepared spells) is a neat idea. And removing extra damage per level seems like a good theory, but I'd have to see it in practice to see if it really needed work. It seems to me that this kind of idea already plays out: a 7th level sorcerer could cast a scorching ray for 8d6 damage, or a fireball for 7d6 damage. Sure, the scorching ray only uses a 2nd level slot instead of a 3rd, but it only hits one target vs. a 20' area. Paying 2 mana points vs. 3 doesn't really change this issue. A 3-point lightning bolt that does 10d6 at level 10 vs. a 10d6 cone of cold for 5 points is certainly a worse offender, but its still hard to judge - especially since at higher levels the 3-point lightning bolt is still only 10d6 and the cone of cold can run up to 15d6.

 

[Spatzimaus]

and at high levels they can fling around completely absurd numbers of upper-level spells all at once.

In practically ANY spell point system, casters can fling around completely absurd numbers of upper-level spells all at once. It's a fundamental drawback of the system. I played a Psion for quite a while, and the only thing keeping this from being a balance issue for them was that frankly, most high-end Psion spells seemed to suck (at least when compared to their arcane/divine counterparts).

This is why I've become a proponent of drain-based casting, which is what the spontaneous casters in our homebrew all use. If you're not physically capable of handling the strain of multiple top-level spells, you're effectively forced to throw some mid-range and low-end spells as well, which fits the D&D casting patterns a bit better.

 

[Grimstaff]

This system is for C&C, but appears to be usable with D&D with little or no conversion:

http://www.cncplayer.net/download/ASC_C_C.pdf

It adapts a spellcaster's normal number of spells per day into a pool of spell points and also gives some optional rules for using "metamagic feat"-style options with them.

 

[erf_beto]

Is this the UA system?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

....

Agreed. That system does needs working around. I mentioned it basicaly because no one else had, and I did the math one day, and the spellcasting is preety close to what the original casters would do with spell slots (only the sorcerer has 1 extra slot worth of sp), since there's been some discussion around it on this thread. As for wizards becaming better than sorcerer in UA's spellpoints, I 've seen some HRs about making the wizard prepare the spellpoints in advance, wich I think is a good idea and I'm planning on using it when I get to DM again (whenever that is... ).

(though, now that i've seen that C&C system just above, i'm thinking things over - that is really good! thanks Grimstaff! )

Anyway, just mentioning it. Not sure if this fits your concept, though.

Also, Spatzimaus is right about the drawback of mana/spell points systems. Even in videogames, you dont use 'Ice 1' against Sephirot, you don't even call on 'Shiva' - you just go straight to that 'knights of the round' summon! I have never seen a psion in play, but i've read that high level powers are not as powerfull as high level magic spells - wich is why the UA variant caps damage dices, making them (almost) less powerfull.

And combining magic and vitality together is also an option, but that depends on the type of game you're playing. Again, yet another variant from UA gives casters fatigue/exhaustion if they use a lot of spellpoints - and after recovering from it, you recover sp as well.

As for magic missiles and other low level spells being cast every round, a la Reserve Feats, not a problem when you only get to do it after some levels (if not, then one level of true-striking sorcerer would be the best fighter multiclassing ever! ).

 

[Spatzimaus]

As for magic missiles and other low level spells being cast every round, a la Reserve Feats, not a problem when you only get to do it after some levels (if not, then one level of true-striking sorcerer would be the best fighter multiclassing ever! ).

Well, there are other, less metagamy ways to handle that. Instead of a straight level cutoff, have it be tied to a caster level or skill check. (See the 3E Metamind psionic PrC for what I mean)

Also, in the homebrew I mention, two out of the three magic classes can effectively cast certain low-level stuff at will. It drastically changes things; being able to cure light wounds nonstop means that a group can always heal fully in the downtime between fights. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing. For one thing, the Cleric-equivalent stops feeling like such a walking healbot; he'll still use high-level slots for combat healing, but now the low-level stuff can be used more for buffs.

Also, true strike at will isn't really a problem, since you'd have to spend a round casting the spell for each time you attack; at best, you'd be cutting your attack rate in half to guarantee a single hit every two rounds.

 

[evilbob]

This system is for C&C, but appears to be usable with D&D with little or no conversion:

This is also an interesting system. One issue I've run into before can be found in the "resting" rules, which is that as you get up to higher character levels, it actually becomes harder to regenerate your pool as quickly (this seems counterintuitive to me). Also, I don't particularly care for the heavy multi-stat dependancy of starting spell points, and the entire system doesn't change much in the way of the "having very limited resources even though you've gained spontaneous casting" argument already put forward in this thread. The "multiple spell lists" idea is interesting, and I've used a system like that before in play. It can get slightly tricky, but it's less difficult to keep track of than say, the dodge feat, so it's still a reasonable idea in my book.

Also, true strike at will isn't really a problem, since you'd have to spend a round casting the spell for each time you attack; at best, you'd be cutting your attack rate in half to guarantee a single hit every two rounds.

I completely agree. There's nothing stopping a fighter from currently multiclassing into a sorcerer for 1 level and gaining a few true strikes; most don't, however, because it's just not worth it. The spell itself is balanced as a first-level spell, and (outside of a magic item that grants it each round) it works well that way in any extension of that system.

 

[Pyrex]

The C&C system has some interesting bits, but I instinctively dislike needing a table for SP instead of having a understandable formula; especially given that there are some odd breakpoints in their table. I think they also give too many sp's to a first level caster. And the DC's for casting 'known' but not 'practiced' spells are laughable.

 

[evilbob]

I second all of Pyrex's last post.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Been playing with some numbers based on the Mana Point systems in the last couple threads, and I may be onto something.

New System Features
*Has small mana pool
*regenerates quickly
*designed around per-encounter model
-requires that you track regen during combat, but to compensate its otherwise pretty simple
-eliminates the "wizard spent now we hide" model
-can still nova but both less overpowering

Mechanics
Mana Pool: ((caster level + attribute bonus)x2) + attribute bonus
-Averaging it out mana pool is 1/4 of normal daily spells for a wizard of their level and statistics.
Mana Regen: [+attribute bonus/round]
-At low levels and attribute bonuses this can completely refresh the mana pool during a single longer combat but by the time a character hits level 10 or so it should be regenerating the pool longer than most combats and short enough that between combats it will be completely refreshed so that it fits a per-encounter model
Spell Cost: [mana cost=spell level]
-0 level spells can cost nothing or some fraction, I usually choose nothing given their small effects (except the dreaded cure minor)
Metamagic: [mana cost=spell level increase]
-about like every other spellpoint metamagic system, also can't spend more Mana on a single spell than the cost of the highest level spell they can cast. (maybe should consider highest level+2 so can apply still or silent to highest level spells if they want)

 

[Pyrex]

One alternate you might consider is that Mana doesn't regenerate during combat at all, but rather refreshes after combat. That way it's one less thing to track and makes long combats a little more tense.

CL*2+StatMod*3 seems like a lot of mana, 14 mana for a 1st level char is nuts.

Mana regen is too large, a 20th level char could be recovering +10 mana per round, meaning they'll never run dry. Regen probably shouldn't be any higher than 1-3pts per round. Generally characters should not recover enough mana in a round to cast either their highest nor second-highest spell-level per round; if they do they're never forced to use lower-level spells.